MMR & autism Not just bad science but also falsified

princeofpounds

why then the measles virus is found in the intestines of children with Autism

Do you have any clue how many viruses live throughout the body all the time? A good proportion of people carry around the herpes virus without ever suffering a cold sore. Same for all sorts of colds, flu, gastro bugs etc. etc.

Immunisation does not make the whole body a sterile environment. It simply allows the immune system to prevent mass-scale reproduction of the relevant virus. But there is nothing to stop the virus living in various nooks and crannies of the body on a small, non-symptomatic scale in many cases.

The whole thing is a typical misunderstanding that people have that correlation means causation. We are hardwired for it - it's why so many religions think that praying at dawn ensures the return of the sun etc.

melancholly

sassyblue wrote: »

I want to know why then the measles virus is found in the intestines of children with Autism?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003140

worth a read - the evidence isn't actually showing that. one study doesn't prove *anything*. it all needs checking with separate, independent groups as you get results by chance. unfortunately some uk newspaper journalists have reported completely skewed interpretations by the literature

i assume that it's this kind of report that people have read:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html
but i just want to point out that i can't actually find any published article about these results (which i think came out in 2006). that makes them very difficult to interpret as we can't see the methods or the results from the whole group (to know, for example if they found a similar rate in children who didn't have autism - basic control condition!). if it is as clear as the article suggests, then it would be a hugely influential paper that would have a large impact.....

princeofpounds

five vaccines given three times by the age of 6 months

Don't forget the hundreds and thousands of viral and bacterial infections a baby is exposed to from pregnancy up to the first few weeks after being born. And those viruses and bacteria aren't even disabled! Even if there were a problem with multiple vaccines the whole 'immune system overexposed' is clearly a load of rubbish.

melancholly

princeofpounds wrote: »

The whole thing is a typical misunderstanding that people have that correlation means causation.

well, at a population level, there's not even any evidence for correlation..... what can you do when there isn't even that and people still believe it?!

[Deleted User]

I think the 'immune system overload' i just a basic problem with how people try to understand things. They make analogies between systems that aren't really related.

Your immune system is not an electrical system. It doesn't have a fuse and blow out. It is not a road, it does not get 'clogged'. People with limited education make poor analogies, then when bad science gets into the mix they start making false assumptions.

patchwork_cat

conradmum wrote: »

What people who are concerned about a triple jab 'overwhelming' the immune system forget is that the first vaccinations babies get are triple jabs too. It is DTP (diptheria, tetanus and pertussis - whooping cough). At the same time, babies are given polio vaccine and Hib (meningitis). So in fact, babies have been receiving a triple vaccine at a very young age for about 50 years, as well as the later polio vaccine and the more recent meningitis vaccine.

Yes, that's five vaccines given three times by the age of 6 months. Yet people are concerned about the MMR being 'too much'. There was no concern about DTP being an excessive challenge to the immune system when it was introduced, people were just grateful for it. It's completely normal for the immune system to constantly react to challenges. In fact, there's evidence that we're healthier for it.

But that is my whole point after 5 vaccines at that age and then the MMR and I believe another vaccine for meningitis now that is too many in such a short space of time and a slower approach would do no harm in the long term the diseases would still be eliminated from our community . There was a controversy about the DTP actually, although it was to do with the whopping cough (p) aspect.

Do you not think that this list looks excessive?



2 months:

• Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib, a bacterial infection that can cause severe pneumonia or meningitis in young children) given as a 5-in-1 single jab known as DTaP/IPV/Hib
• Pneumococcal infection

3 months:

• 5-in-1, second dose (DTaP/IPV/Hib)
• Meningitis C

4 months:

• 5-in-1, third dose (DTaP/IPV/Hib)
• Pneumococcal infection, second dose
• Meningitis C, second dose

Between 12 and 13 months:

• Meningitis C, third dose
• Hib, fourth dose (Hib/MenC given as a single jab)
• MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), given as a single jab
• Pneumococcal infection, third dose

3 years and 4 months, or soon after:

• MMR second jab
• Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis and polio (DtaP/IPV), given as a 4-in-1 pre-school booster

patchwork_cat

ringo_24601 wrote: »

I think the 'immune system overload' i just a basic problem with how people try to understand things. They make analogies between systems that aren't really related.

Your immune system is not an electrical system. It doesn't have a fuse and blow out. It is not a road, it does not get 'clogged'. People with limited education make poor analogies, then when bad science gets into the mix they start making false assumptions.

That is not a valid argument. You are being unscientific. You can not contradict somebodies argument by saying you have limited education. If someone has analysed data and taken advice they do not have limited education just because they disagree with you. I'll hazard a guess that I have more science qualifications than you! and I am certain that my mum who had concerns about vaccines and was a fellow of faculty of public health and an MBCHB, DPh has more qualifications than you.

Because I have concerns about the IOM conclusion does not make me poorly educated, ( infact they recommend continued research) merely more cautious with my child. As I say why will the govt. not offer single vaccines if the parent requests it? I would feel that there was much less of a cover up if they did. Also if Tony Blair had vaccinated Leo I would have felt more confident.

[Deleted User]

patchwork_cat wrote: »

That is not a valid argument. You are being unscientific. You can not contradict somebodies argument by saying you have limited education. If someone has analysed data and taken advice they do not have limited education just because they disagree with you. I'll hazard a guess that I have more science qualifications than you!

If you wish to put your science cards on the table, i studied BSc Genetics and MSc Bioinformatics, I have also held the position of Research assistant and Research fellow at a Russell group university. I did admittedly quit because the money was rubbish, but i was good at my job. I had to be good at molecular biology and genetics AND good at statistics.

I certainly will call people's education into question. Without basic knowledge you can make wild statements not knowing if you are vaguely correct. You listed a bunch of vaccinations given to babies. Ever stop to consider just how many viral infections a baby gets normally? In which way do you consider an immunisation (containing inert viral particulates) as more damaging than live viral infections?

patchwork_cat

ringo_24601 wrote: »

If you wish to put your science cards on the table, i studied BSc Genetics and MSc Bioinformatics, I have also held the position of Research assistant and Research fellow at a Russell group university. I did admittedly quit because the money was rubbish, but i was good at my job. I had to be good at molecular biology and genetics AND good at statistics.

I certainly will call people's education into question. Without basic knowledge you can make wild statements not knowing if you are vaguely correct. You listed a bunch of vaccinations given to babies. Ever stop to consider just how many viral infections a baby gets normally? In which way do you consider an immunisation (containing inert viral particulates) as more damaging than live viral infections?

Exactly my point the vaccinations are on top of all the viral, bacterial and fungal infections that a baby comes into contact with - every single one of which requires a new immune response. I studied BSc(Hons) Biology also at a Russell Group! As I say because someone has concerns and the intelligence to question conclusions does not make them ill educated. Quite the contrary, science thrives on alternative conclusions and challenged thinking, that is how we develop. If we didn't we would all still believe that the world was flat. It is every scientists obligation to question and analyse conclusions drawn. I am going to agree with my Dr mother on this and approach with caution.

conradmum

patchwork_cat wrote: »

But that is my whole point after 5 vaccines at that age and then the MMR and I believe another vaccine for meningitis now that is too many in such a short space of time and a slower approach would do no harm in the long term the diseases would still be eliminated from our community . There was a controversy about the DTP actually, although it was to do with the whopping cough (p) aspect.

Do you not think that this list looks excessive?




2 months:

• Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib, a bacterial infection that can cause severe pneumonia or meningitis in young children) given as a 5-in-1 single jab known as DTaP/IPV/Hib
• Pneumococcal infection

3 months:

• 5-in-1, second dose (DTaP/IPV/Hib)
• Meningitis C

4 months:

• 5-in-1, third dose (DTaP/IPV/Hib)
• Pneumococcal infection, second dose
• Meningitis C, second dose

Between 12 and 13 months:

• Meningitis C, third dose
• Hib, fourth dose (Hib/MenC given as a single jab)
• MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), given as a single jab
• Pneumococcal infection, third dose

3 years and 4 months, or soon after:

• MMR second jab
• Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis and polio (DtaP/IPV), given as a 4-in-1 pre-school booster

No, not at all. Children are exposed to thousands of viruses and bacteria from birth. In fact, it's absolutely necessary that they are. I would far rather my children were exposed to a vaccination than the real thing, which would be the case if vaccinations were not given.

I'm profoundly grateful that my children can have all of those vaccinations, and for free. In fact, because I spent some time living in a third world country, two of my children have had additional vaccinations on top of those for things like rabies, typhoid and Japanense encephalitis.

The controversy over the DTP was not about the fact that it was a triple vaccine, it was because of the whooping cough component. In the resulting scare, many babies caught whooping cough and died or were disabled from it.