Bitter sister in law

lostinrates

coolcait wrote: »

Isn't 'being polite' very much part of 'conforming to conventional opinion'?

No, I don't believe so. I am of the minority opinion on this thread, and I have tried to answer points openly and with politeness but frankly.

I believe that politeness being confused with conformity...or rather rudeness being confused with ''honesty'' and principles is actually a set back to most ''causes'' and no more right than what ever original points of conflict are.

ceridwen

COOLCAIT

You're a "night bird" - judging by the times you post. Me - I shudder at the thought of keeping such hours as you do:rotfl::eek:

So - unless I talk in my sleep (via the keyboard) - then you ain't me and I ain't you IYSWIM:rotfl:

*******************

I think one point no-one has raised to date - you, me or anyone else is that maybe SIL has "problems" relating to her family (if she does..) is because she's a very different type of person to them. She might possibly be an unconventional person born into a conventional family - in which case = I sympathise.

Sometimes people DO get born into families that are very different to themselves and it can create a LOT of problems all round. As previously stated - I got born into a family very different to myself (yes...I really AM theirs and not adopted). It does take a lot of effort to learn to relate to each other when that happens and I feel envious of people who have parents more like themselves - and my parents probably feel envious of those who have children more like themselves.

In our case - we managed to work things out between us and I see my parents pretty frequently and am probably the person who is closest to them of anyone they know (relative or otherwise).

But - it IS hard when this happens and the amount of effort involved to adapt/get on with should not be underestimated and it has to be two-way. Maybe thats what happened in the case of SIL and the family she was born into - ie the effort never was made and maybe that wasnt SIL's fault - maybe the parents didnt do their bit to adapt to having a child very different to themselves (witness this family constantly criticising SIL for a range of things by the sound of it...).

bunty109

Just to hypothesise more: we're all assuming the SIL felt uncomfortable toasting the new baby. Maybe - just maybe - she could have taken offence if the toast had taken place when she was out of the room? OP says she can be difficult and maybe this isn't just about being principled. She could just be what my OH calls a "mood hoover"! (and I'm not intending to generalise about anyone else on the thread in saying this: it's just there's assumptions she's had her feelings hurt, when she might just be a grumpy wotsit who constantly finds fault with people!).

melancholly

bunty109 wrote: »

Just to hypothesise more: we're all assuming the SIL felt uncomfortable toasting the new baby. Maybe - just maybe - she could have taken offence if the toast had taken place when she was out of the room? OP says she can be difficult and maybe this isn't just about being principled. She could just be what my OH calls a "mood hoover"! (and I'm not intending to generalise about anyone else on the thread in saying this: it's just there's assumptions she's had her feelings hurt, when she might just be a grumpy wotsit who constantly finds fault with people!).

although i can see that this would avoid a problem in the short term, it seems unreasonable to hide/not talk about one particular child whenever she is around. i'm all for trying to be sensitive but it works two ways. they shouldn't rub it in her face (although one toast hardly seems that!), but she shouldn't expect them to tiptoe around her.

there are plenty of family members i can't stand to be in a room with, but i smile politely and seethe on the inside when i have to tolerate them. it's called being an adult!

red_devil

her loss strange woman could be jealous.

andrealm

melancholly wrote: »

although i can see that this would avoid a problem in the short term, it seems unreasonable to hide/not talk about one particular child whenever she is around. i'm all for trying to be sensitive but it works two ways. they shouldn't rub it in her face (although one toast hardly seems that!), but she shouldn't expect them to tiptoe around her.

there are plenty of family members i can't stand to be in a room with, but i smile politely and seethe on the inside when i have to tolerate them. it's called being an adult!

Good point, what will happen at the next family occasion, does anyone seriously expect that the rest of the family who are delighted at the news should be afraid to mention the baby again if SIL is there? Are they expected to tiptoe around her forever?

Just maybe the FIL thought that she might be able to be polite about it in spite of her own personal views. I'm sure he wouldn't have done the toast with her there if he had thought she would be so rude and spoil a happy moment for the rest of the family.

BigBlackcat

coolcait wrote: »

Pointing out the fact that the SIL was out in an awkward situation, is not saying that everyone has to walk on eggshells around her, to avoid upsetting her. How exactly? We all find ourselves in awkward predicaments from time to time. Most of us know how to conduct ourselves graciously.

I have not suggested that the family should not have made the toast. I have consistently said that the family could have made the toast when the SIL was not present. So, pandering to SIL's needs..

That is neither pandering to her, not putting her in a difficult position. Debatable.

Like everyone else, I can only go on the information being provided by the OP. From that information, it is clear that there was a huge risk that the SIL would not join in a toast to the parents and the expected baby.

From that information, it is also clear that there was a huge risk that, under those circumstances, the SIL would make remarks which others would find hurtful. Mmmm. That all come's back to pandering to SIL's needs/ideals. SIL can't deal? Then that is her problem.

Who was most hurt and upset at the end of all of this? It appears to be the OP. The OP has also referred to 'five others' who were upset. Who wouldn't be upset by SIL's bizarre theatrics??

The OP has spoken of her FIL 'standing up' to his daughter on this occasion. You have said that "no one should pander to the ridiculous needs of this woman".

Personally, I think that if you are going to choose a battleground over bad behaviour, you should try to find one where only you and your opponent are going to get hurt (by words). True. But OP is only conjecturing at this point. But in MY honest opinion SIL needs a smackdown, and fast. It might save her from a lifetime of alienation.

Don't choose a battleground where innocent bystanders - like the expectant parents - are likely to be the ones on the receiving end of the hurtful words. Especially when family history makes it almost inevitable that there will be hurtful words. I think this could actually be a healthy pivotal moment in regards to OP's and SIL's relationship. OP has a carte blanche to cut her off completely. I wouldn't blame her one bit.

As an aside, how can any of us expect to have our own needs respected, if we dismiss the needs of others as 'ridiculous'?

You see, there is such a thing as knowing when to shut your mouth. Maybe I shouldn't have said her views were ridiculous, but her behaviour was. As an adult, I know how to behave appropriately around others, so should she. I have many strong opinions on certain subjects, but I know when to draw the line. When your views go beyond the healthy boundaries, and start to dictate the lives of others, then you need to step back.

Alittlesad

Thanks again everyone. This debate has certainly gone beyoned what I expected and I have heard some views that I really hadn't considered.
I understand in a way why a couple of people believe my FIL was insensitive, though describing him as cruel is too much.
As I have said, my SIL has been tiptoed around (particularly by her parents) for many years and they have borne the brunt of her behaviour.
I have not been party to any discussion my FIL and MIL have had prior to the toast at Christmas but they are so pleased about the pregnancy that I can imagine they did decide that enough was enough. My FIL is a straightforward man and I imagine he spoke to my SIL about the toast beforehand.
Maybe, as Ceridwen suggests, my SIL was "born into the wrong family" but I fail to see why her feelings have to be spared above all others, over and over again.

My husband is still away and we haven't talked much about it over the phone. I don't want to cut her off (though perhaps that would make her happiest) so we will find a way to proceed with the least possible upset to everyone I hope.

Thanks in particular to Lostinrates who has provided her opinion with balance and care. I appreciate it.
I'm still bemused that Coolcait singled out my quite gentle comments to Ceridwen to berate when there are much worse comments of a very personal nature directed at Ceridwen throughout the thread. Very perplexing.

onlyroz

Well I don't think that the sister-in-law should be tip-toed around, but at the same time I don't think that she should be forced to express feelings of happiness that were not there. Perhaps a more tactful way of dealing with the situation would be to have said "You already know my views on this, but I wish you well".

I think her comments about not buying gifts for the third child were unnecessary, and she will hopefully come to regret them once the baby arrives. If she does carry through with this threat, though, I would return any gifts given to the elder two children.

dizziblonde

Both sides of this sound hideous - you're all "ME ME ME ME ME and she's bitter cos she didn't worship ME ME ME ME ME" and she behaved hideously inappropriately as well.

I've lost two pregnancies and three babies since one set was twins this year - most of my family break pregnancy announcements incredibly sensitively to me (doing things like letting me know prior to big "let's toast the good news" type dealies and things so that I can prepare myself, know to take a deep breath, fix the smile to my face and then head to the loos to sob afterwards)... is that "tiptoeing around someone" as well? Am I a "bitter twisted old spinster" since I struggle to go massively enthusiastic about news and just manage a quiet smile while I'm ripped to shreds inside? I suppose I'm evil for not buying a Xmas gift for my cousin's baby but instead sending money in a card with a note saying "look, I'm in no mental shape to cope with gift shopping for a baby right now - buy what she needs."

You're equally as spiteful in that you're ignoring all others' feelings and assuming they'll drop everything to rejoice over your announcement. You've not considered her views in how you broke the news - like she didn't consider your feelings in how she reacted.

On a more general note - To those who sit there and are just mocking those who are involuntarily childless and do struggle horrifically with these announcements - would you accept someone who'd just lost their mother and was grieving having a rough time on Mother's Day? Those who can't have kids, or who are struggling, or who've had miscarriages have to grieve too - in exactly the same kind of way but a less tangible (and less tolerated) way... you might not have to grieve for one lost person (or in my case three - gawd 2010 sucked), but you have to grieve essentially for your entire OWN lost life, for all that planned path you had, for all those hopes and dreams you have and it's a hellish experience and takes a blooming long time... then you have to have one heck of a lot of guts and resillience to start to make the road less travelled the path you take your life along... sometimes you find a shortcut to scramble back onto the more conventional highway, sometimes you don't. I'm sure my own sister in law would think I'm the bitter one - I haven't rejoiced in her pregnancy announcement which came between the two miscarriages I've had this year... I've just stayed the heck out of the way as a self-protection mechanism for myself - no insensitivity, no outspokenness... but at the same time as she, rightly has the right for her feelings to be considered and valued - so does her brother and myself and we needed that distance ourselves to heal up. If I ever find out she's sat there complaining about that (she's the sort who probably would) - THEN I would rip her to shreds.

But, and I acknowledge this is a more distinct situation but various posters jumped on the stereotype so I'm jumping in to counter that, to sit there and refuse to acknowledge in general the hideous awfulness that pregnancy announcements are for those who got a bum deal when life handed out the cards... to sit and label them all as bitter because they smiled, said well done and then sat quietly, without an appreciation for the fact that raising that smile required every ounce of emotional strength - that's not on either. To give you an example of how hard it can be - a family friend, who knows about the crap that we've gone through (years of infertility followed by repeated miscarriages) made a quip (he's the sort with the sensitivity of a brick when there's a witty comment to be made) about how he "expected diz to be getting on and producing a kid sooner rather than later" - it knocked me so far down I cried myself to sleep for a good couple of nights over it - it can really hurt, you can react in what might seem to be very "bitter" ways - but that's self preservation and one of the stages of grieving for things... it's really quite amazing how spot-on the stages of grief are when dealing with this all actually (I was quite cross when I realized I was being completely typical!).

Don't judge us all too harshly - it's a pain that many of you thankfully don't know and you can never really imagine or empathise with.