Vodafone complaints

Silk

Loosetooth wrote: »

None of that is relevant because I WITHDREW the complaint.

If I had not have withdrawn the complaint then I would have had to decide whether to accept the proposal or reject the proposal and provide new evidence. But I WITHDREW the complaint, making the whole process null and void.

The process is not null and void because you used the process up to and including the report and offer stage.
You have now exhausted the Ombudsman service and can no longer return to them with the issue.
Whether you consider it withdrawn or rejected it's exactly the same situation.
Claiming it was withdrawn changes nothing, you used the service, a report was done and an offer was put on the table, you declined the offer by failing to carry on.
Just because you class it as withdrawn does not mean that Vodafone are obliged to converse with you and Lee has already told you twice they are unable to help.

Loosetooth

Silk wrote: »

The process is not null and void because you used the process up to and including the report and offer stage.
You have now exhausted the Ombudsman service and can no longer return to them with the issue.
Whether you consider it withdrawn or rejected it's exactly the same situation.
Claiming it was withdrawn changes nothing, you used the service, a report was done and an offer was put on the table, you declined the offer by failing to carry on.
Just because you class it as withdrawn does not mean that Vodafone are obliged to converse with you and Lee has already told you twice they are unable to help.

Well.... you are wrong in everything except one thing.

Every party (me, the Ombudsman and Vodafone) recognise that I have withdrawn from the process BEFORE it was binding. It is only you that does not. As I said... that is not relevant to me, nor the process.

The one thing where you are correct is that "does not mean that Vodafone are obliged to converse with you" but then that was true before the Ombudsman and during it. In which case I can take it to the Small Claims.

"you declined the offer by failing to carry on" - incorrect interpretation. I spoke to the Ombudsman officer and withdrew the complaint... not the whole thing continued whilst I refused to participate. I withdrew the complaint against Vodafone, which you are within your right to do. No complaint? No offer... no binding commitment. You cannot conceive that, once the process is entered into, you can withdraw the complaint thus making the whole process null and void.

So... and this really is the last time.... (again... agree to disagree) just because you cannot conceive that what I am saying is viable does not mean that what you are saying is the actual situation or factually correct. You are incorrect in your interpretation of the rules. And as I have said (exhaustively) just because you cannot conceive you may be incorrect and just because you feel I am b/s-ing and producing dubious documents impacts on NOTHING. It is just another dude with an opinion on the internet. Opinion, and an incorrect one at that, is all you repeating here. Does not change the facts.

Silk

Loosetooth wrote: »

Every party (me, the Ombudsman and Vodafone) recognise that I have withdrawn from the process BEFORE it was binding. It is only you that does not. As I said... that is not relevant to me, nor the process.

You still don't see it do you ?
The process is never binding to you if it reached conclusion you are able to reject it. There is no difference to claiming you withdrew or rejecting it
The only party that would have been bound by the resolution would have been Vodafone should you have chosen to enforce it.
As before there is no difference in your situation.
If you are supposed to be able to do something by withdrawing rather than rejecting ..what is it ?
It may be useful to someone in a similar situation

Loosetooth

Silk wrote: »

You still don't see it do you ?
The process is never binding to you if it reached conclusion you are able to reject it. There is no difference to claiming you withdrew or rejecting it
The only party that would have been bound by the resolution would have been Vodafone should you have chosen to enforce it.
As before there is no difference in your situation.
If you are supposed to be able to do something by withdrawing rather than rejecting ..what is it ?
It may be useful to someone in a similar situation

Okay... look arbitration is binding. If I had not withdrawn from the process, rejected the proposed solution but provided no extra evidence or factual in-corrections in the material investigation then I HAVE to take the solution, if I reject the solution I get nothing and have lost the right to pursue the complaint via other means. There would be no right to appeal and I cannot access the Small Claims Court, because the matter has already been taken to conclusion in the Ombudsman, it cannot be challenged.

Now... lets put aside the right/wrong, "you just making it up and saying it does not make it so" aspect to our little, fun, er... whatever this is. Let's just assume that what I am saying is correct and play through has this is going for me:

1. Is this situation usual? Nope.

2. Would I recommend anyone else doing it? Nope.

3. How is it working out for me? Well... dunno.

I am free to go to Small Claims now, but that is a laborious process and although I have evidence that Vodafone is in the wrong and am (kinda) sure - lets say 80% - I can get a win it does not mean that that win will be better than what the Ombudsman offered. Add to that that although I am allowed, through dropping the Ombudsman complaint, to take everything to court, it will also come out that there was an Ombudsman process that I rejected... I am not sure that the judge (should it get that far) will throw open his arms and say "welcome, welcome Mr. Loosetooth", ie he/she cannot deny the process or the evidence, but they can take a sour view of me rejecting the Ombudsman and that can be reflected in their final decision.

However I can also show that I have been bending over backwards to get a solution through any and all media (Ask Jeroen, email, letter, phone, Live Chat, blahblah) and that Vodafone have frustrated that process. I also have no doubt that my treatment here, at the hands of Lee, would have been different (and that is not code for "I would have got my way") because it seems to me that this is the last place where this is common sense CS and the ability to have a dialogue and put a case and be listened to, even if the conclusion is "Vodafone disagrees, we cannot help".

I withdrew from the Ombudsman because I really did not think that their solution was fair... and trust me I regret that that happened. I wish that the Ombudsman, who found wrong doing, came down on Vodafone harder. Should this go on to court I will Subject Access Request documents to re-enforce my case. But I just do not want to and am willing to meet Vodafone halfway to avoid it.

So...

Would I go to the Ombudsman again?

No. I wish I knew about the MSE Forums and would have just come here. Failing that I would go straight to Small Claims, the Ombudsman was slow and disheartening, ultimately their solution was not fair.

Would I, given the chance, withdraw my complaint from the Ombudsman again?

Difficult to say. On the one hand I honestly, hand on heart, did not feel that their solution was at all fair, hence why I did it. However it has also made things much more uncertain. For instance, because it is so rare, I am already in a no-mans land where making people understand what I did is hard, due mainly to it not being common practice.

Once they do understand then, as you correctly identify, there are two options. Re-establish Vodafone communications. As you said they are under no obligations to do anything. I have hit the reset button. Any Ombudsman proposal, gone. Any previous Vodafone communications, gone. Any obligation for future communications, gone. So... Vodafone might well say to me "S*d off!!! (metaphorically) you can go down with the ship you holed" and they are within their rights.

Second option... Small Claims. We know that road, the timescale, the difficulties and the stresses. I mean if I am backed up there with no where to go, no problems, but this represents a last, last resort and I would rather find a solution here, even if it cuts the bone a little (not too much).

Would I recommend anyone else withdraws their complaint from the Ombudsman?

No. But then it has to be a personal decision. I guess I just felt (correctly or incorrectly, time will tell) strongly that that was not a solution I could live with and I did not want to lose the ability to take it somewhere else. My thinking at the time of the rejection was to go straight to Small Claims and I came here to look for advice on that process, however seeing as there is an active UK Vodafone rep then the thinking came one last try to find a good solution for me and for them and then... Small Claims. I could very well live and die by this sword, my own damn sword, it could have been a really stupid move - well probably was, but a really stupid move with a terrible ending.

Silk

Loosetooth wrote: »

Would I recommend anyone else withdraws their complaint from the Ombudsman?

No. But then it has to be a personal decision. I guess I just felt (correctly or incorrectly, time will tell) strongly that that was not a solution I could live with. I could very well live and die by this sword and it could have been a really stupid move - well probably was, but a really stupid move with a terrible ending.

So after all that there is no difference between withdrawing and rejecting then ?

Loosetooth

Silk wrote: »

So after all that there is no difference between withdrawing and rejecting then ?

Yes...

Withdrawing - the proposal disolves *!!!!!!* and neither Vodafone nor myself are bound by it. I am free to go to Small Claims court.

Rejecting - I need to provide new evidence or show the investigation is, in some incorrect, and if I fail to do that I am bound to the proposed solution (well I can reject it but then I get nothing) and I lose the ability for the matter to be examined by another body (the Small Claims Court).

So although I am saying it was probably a stupid move... I am still alive, I still have the ability to get a different, fairer, ending. That was not the case at the Ombudsman.

Anyway... I am out for the day. I will tell you how this ends, for better or for worse. Right now I am off to get some dinner and watch The Wire.

Silk

Loosetooth wrote: »

Yes...

Withdrawing - the proposal disolves *!!!!!!* and neither Vodafone nor myself are bound by it. I am free to go to Small Claims court.

Rejecting - I need to provide new evidence or show the investigation is, in some incorrect, and if I fail to do that I am bound to the proposed solution (well I can reject it but then I get nothing) and I lose the ability for the matter to be examined by another body (the Small Claims Court).

So although I am saying it was probably a stupid move... I am still alive, I still have the ability to get a different, fairer, ending. That was not the case at the Ombudsman.

Anyway... I am out for the day. I will tell you how this ends, for better or for worse. Right now I am off to get some dinner and watch The Wire.

Nope read the rules .....you don't have to give reason to reject and you are still able to go through the court

Loosetooth

Silk wrote: »

Nope read the rules .....you don't have to give reason to reject and you are still able to go through the court

Okay... so apologies for disappearing, the reason for this was simple, I was talking with Lee and I did not want to prejudice that dialogue (not that I would intentionally) with our debate/discussion.

I have now reached an agreement with Vodafone thanks to Lee. It is actually the offer I have made to Vodafone many, many times but Lee was able to hear that offer and take it on consideration, whereas the current overseas CS would not hear it, had no flex and descended into threatening me to pay the full bill or face the wrath of Vodafone.

Essentially those here who told me to stop bugging Lee as he had already told me he could not help me were wrong (Lee misunderstood what had happened with the Ombudsman) and if I had followed the advice of those here I would have believed that I was beyond help, did not have a case and should pay Vodafone the amount they claimed I owed them. Now, accepting your personal views of me and my attitude, that is worrisome and you need to look at that... if you KNOW what you are saying is 100% true (that would involve you being FULLY qualified legally and knowing ALL the relevant facts of the case) then by all means chip in, otherwise you should allow some percentage that maybe you do not know what you are talking about and COULD be wrong.

Silk.... lets wrap up our thing.

1. Did I realise that the Communications Ombudsman decisions were NOT a final and binding decision?

No.

I have had dealings with other Ombudsman and their decisions were final and binding and I assumed that was the case in the Ombudsman model. Again that was my bad, I should have read the rules.

However what I would say is this... I talked extensively with the Ombudsman investigator (the one whose email you doubted due to his English) at the time and he was aware I thought that the decision was binding, he did not disavow me of that view and encouraged me to withdraw the complaint. I could go and complain about this, but it is no longer my problem as the solution that I came to with Vodafone is better than the solution offered by the Ombudsman.

2. Was their any advantage to withdrawing the complaint than simply following the procedure and rejecting their proposal?

Yes.

The first way is that there was a significant time penalty to the procedure of staying in the Ombudsman process and rejecting the proposal. Having read the rules I can see I would have had to wait up to 28 days before I could further move... also...

When I first came here you notice that Lee/Vodafone position was "If you are unhappy with the Ombudsman then contact them". If I had not have withdrawn from the Ombudsman I believe that Vodafone's attitude would have been that I could accept the Ombudsman's proposal or go to court. I get the impression that the wiggle room that allowed Lee to go back to the Ombudsman Dept in Vodafone was that the complaint had been dropped. This is the sense I got from our (Lee/myself) conversations... it may be wrong, it was also unplanned, my actions were simply to avoid a binding decision (which as you have told me was not the situation I was in) however it may have been the action that made the final compromise possible.

It was an unusual situation and that went in my favour, I would not be able to guess that that is how Vodafone would treat anyone who came after.

Anyway.... I would like to thank Lee, it is just a relief to have met someone with some compassion, common sense, the power to consider offers and the ability to listen to a deal. That culture does not exist in the overseas call centres where there is more "computer says no" and a more baseball bat approach to customer services.

Silk

Glad you got it sorted.

Loosetooth wrote: »

2. Was their any advantage to withdrawing the complaint than simply following the procedure and rejecting their proposal?

Yes.

The first way is that there was a significant time penalty to the procedure of staying in the Ombudsman process and rejecting the proposal. Having read the rules I can see I would have had to wait up to 28 days before I could further move

Nope wrong again I'm afraid ..... read the rules again.


Once you reject you are free to move on straight away....the 28 days is for the company to comply with the Ombudsman's decision, had you accepted it.

Loosetooth

Silk wrote: »

Glad you got it sorted.



Nope wrong again I'm afraid ..... read the rules again.

.

The simple reason that I have not currently read the rules, or intend to, is because they became irrelevant to me.

Should I have read the rules before? Absolutely and, what's more, I do not hold EE (or any phone company) in high enough esteem that I think that they are brilliant enough to mean I will 100% never need the Ombudsman again - if that happens rest assured you have taught me an important lesson and I will read the rules.

But for now... I do not need them and did not need them from the minute I withdrew the complaint.