We’d like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum.
This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are – or become – political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.
IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including number plates, reference numbers and QR codes (which may reveal vehicle information when scanned).
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
Maybe promoted from a PPC to a CEO?
Comments
-
Hi ppc_guy thanks for taking the time to answer some questions. The quote by you below is what I believe condemns most of your industry. The bold section specifically.I've Just re-read my quoted section in my reply above and i have mis-read the statement. A company who is paid a fixed fee regardless of how many tickets they issue could work in 2 ways.
1) They charge a high rate and dont worry about issuing tickets. they dont secure a contract for long
2) They charge a low price and have to issue lots of tickets to make a living .
Parking restrictions anywhere were set up to stop congestion and abuse both official and privately. They should never be set as a revenue earner.
First instance if you run a P&D car park, any revenue generated by the fee should pay for the enforcement of conditions. By a person purchasing a P&D ticket you could have an argument that a contract was formed. If conditions are breached then an amount should equate to the actual losses and an admin charge. Normally recognized as around £12 to £25 by other bodies such as banks and such.
Secondly a free car park for a retail outlet, the reason I believe the retailers employ PPC,s is mainly to stop commuter abuse do you agree!
Someone who parks and goes off to work is abusing that landowners property and I believe [don't know how many agree] if they knowingly do it should be penalised. I think that abuse could be better enforced other then use a PPC.
However anyone who uses any of the outlets on the area has the right to be there. They have used the outlets who own or let the property. They then return to their vehicle to see a charge notice for examples:
Overstaying, parking not within a bay, parking in a disabled area with blue badge incorrectly displayed, Returning to car park within the restricted time.
Overstaying the restriction is set solely as a revenue earner, some restrictions are ridiculous some like Lidle have one hour. If a person uses the retailer then the restriction should be for as long as you are shopping.
Parking not within a bay. I can understand if it was a small carpark and somebody used two bays this would be inconsiderate parking. We have heard many who have reported being charged for having their tyres touching the bay markings, and the car park being sparsely used. This can only be seen as a revenue earner!
parking in a disabled bay with blue badge incorrectly displayed. The blue badge scheme is a Government concession to the disabled to allow them to park mostly unrestricted near where they need to go. If on a private car park the blue badge carries no authority other then to show a person in the car is disabled. The blue badge can be displayed in any which way the person chooses to display it as it carries no authority with the PPC other then to prove the person is disabled. Any charging for this can only be a revenue earner!
Returning to car park within the restricted time This is another clause simply to gain revenue. I go to B&Q buy a pot of paint go home wifey sends me back as she don't like it. I have returned within the restricted time yet I have the right to do so without being penalised. Another instance we have read many here A customer goes to McDs has something to eat, picks up relative who decides they are hungry back to McDs. Letter in post parking charge. If they are customers they have the right to go as often and as many times as they like. So again this clause can only be seen as a revenue earner.
The whole issue is with many I believe is this industry has been set up not to alleviate car park abuse but to earn revenue, and not from the abusers, but from the unwary who contravene some clause which is set to trap them.
Finally you may run an ethical company, and others could be damaging your industry at your expense. One of the main criticism is the appeals process, which on a whole is a letter saying "unsuccessful" can you confirm the percentage rate of successful appeals you allow?0 -
By the time it ever got to court the losses would be much greater than £75. but as i have explained above the losses are losses made by my compnay in the pursuance of this issue ie time and fuel to issue the ticket.Even if you have proof of who parked, you would need to be able to prove your £75 charge represented actual losses, and is not a penalty contractual clause. There are probably other reasons a court case brought by you could not win.
COULD BE...You seem to have missed the point entirely. To start with the word "offence" could be seen to relate to a criminal act, which parking against displayed terms and conditions is not.
Give me an example of an unreasonable threat on my tickets?[/QUOTE]Secondly, a ticket which mimics a Council or Police ticket, and gives unreasonable threats, could only possibly lead to confusion.
The "codes" are actually letters A-F If someobody feels these are too oficial god forbid someone learns the alphabet they are from Admin and appeals reasons. We dont make up the contraventions we have a set if they break one then we know exactly which one and under which circumstance so if as we often get the Pay and display ticket is "blown" off the dash (Which we have never been able to achieve even by blowing and slamming the doors shut) but their contraventino was parkign in a disabled bay with no disabled badge then it helps us to handle the appeal in a correct and timely fashion.Thirdly, listing "offences" with fake codes designed to look like Council tickets could only be seen as misleading.
Clamping is expected to be banned.. It was meant to be passed ina bill in November but as far as i am aware it wasnt passed as law.When clamping has been banned, the criminal gangs like LBS clamping services will get in on the PPC act, and in a few years they will bring you all down when PPC's are banned, no matter how ethical your business may be. There are probably some ethical clampers out there, e.g. but clamping is being banned for all sadly.
PPC also denotes a private parking company which could eb used to cover any range of services provided by a private company to ensure the management and security of a car park be it Clamping, On site cash taking or indeed like myself the issue of Parking Charge NoticesHi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
Coupon yes i am aware infact i am so aware of what my debt colletion companies (we use 2 for different circumstances) use that i have instructed them to send me copie sof ALL letters they send out.Coupon-mad wrote: »Here Newlyn's very recent letter, reported to various authorities by Herbie21.
Maybe someone else can post a link to the worst Philips letter where they say they are going to send the boys round, can't find it right now after searching a few forums.
You still haven't said whether you even know what your debt collector sends. You are saying your little partnership is whiter than white...yet you are blissfully unaware of what threats/harassment is being carried out in your name?
We also find that after the initial letter from the debt company saying the debt has been passed to them and the amount is now due for the listed contravention then people often phone us anyways so never recieve a second letter.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
Court proceedings limited would probably be struck of teh register for having a isleading name if anybody on here actually complained to companies house?Even if you say you act ethically, its your tame debt collectors who often act illegally, the fact that they are called debt collectors is misleading, there is no debt so how can they collect something that is not owned ?
Really they are beneath contempt and deserve liquidation, one of these companies are called ' court proceedings ltd' a delibirate attempt at deception!
The term debt collection isnt normally used on any paperwork and is infacta term more commonly used by the general public.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
Banks charge a fixed fee per day as this is their banking Period. PPC's operate on a minute by minute basis so does this mean i can apply fees for every minute? If you go 1p overdrawn with lloyds you used to get charged £30 a day up to about 10 times i tihnk so 1p could cost me £300.Hi ppc_guy thanks for taking the time to answer some questions. The quote by you below is what I believe condemns most of your industry. The bold section specifically.
Parking restrictions anywhere were set up to stop congestion and abuse both official and privately. They should never be set as a revenue earner.
First instance if you run a P&D car park, any revenue generated by the fee should pay for the enforcement of conditions. By a person purchasing a P&D ticket you could have an argument that a contract was formed. If conditions are breached then an amount should equate to the actual losses and an admin charge. Normally recognized as around £12 to £25 by other bodies such as banks and such.
Indeed. In norwich there is a car park not run by us which is abused on this basis daily. It is now run by G24 who used fixed ANPR so you dont even get a ticket.Secondly a free car park for a retail outlet, the reason I believe the retailers employ PPC,s is mainly to stop commuter abuse do you agree!
Other methods such as? A polite notice will definitely be ignored if people ignore tickets then who cares about a polite peice of papaper saying "please dont park here its my land"Someone who parks and goes off to work is abusing that landowners property and I believe [don't know how many agree] if they knowingly do it should be penalised. I think that abuse could be better enforced other then use a PPC.
Only if they specifically shop at the retail units for whom the car park was provided otherwise they are as bad as the commuter. If they come to the retail unit park in the car park then go shopping in the city to avoid fees then whats the difference? If however they remain solely on the retail park using only the retail units then they could produce reciepts to this effect i would cancel the ticket regardless of the time limits on the site. I work for the retailer so by penalising their customer i would infact annoy them and over time risk losing the contract.However anyone who uses any of the outlets on the area has the right to be there. They have used the outlets who own or let the property. They then return to their vehicle to see a charge notice for examples:
No its also set up to allow the turnover of spaces to enable a larger number of shoppers to use a siteOverstaying, parking not within a bay, parking in a disabled area with blue badge incorrectly displayed, Returning to car park within the restricted time.
Overstaying the restriction is set solely as a revenue earner, some restrictions are ridiculous some like Lidle have one hour. If a person uses the retailer then the restriction should be for as long as you are shopping.
I saw this yesterday where a P+D barriered car park was showing as having spaces but infact due to a vehicle being maybe 10% into another bay so i was driving round looking for a space which didnt exsist.This again wasnt my site but a major indoor shopping centre. In the run up to xmas the driver was blatantly showing no regard for other shoppers.Parking not within a bay. I can understand if it was a small carpark and somebody used two bays this would be inconsiderate parking. We have heard many who have reported being charged for having their tyres touching the bay markings, and the car park being sparsely used. This can only be seen as a revenue earner!
Legally companies are required to provide 6% of their spaces as designated disabled bays. Short of stanidng and watching and assessing (which would probably be classed as illegal) every vehicle and their drivers there is no glogal way of policing this issue to keep spaces for people who NEED these spaces so we have the interest of others in heart. We dont actually check the disbaled badge but if we can see one displayed we leave it alone thats the end of it. The worst offenders for parkign in disbaled bays are the "boy racer" type and the middle aged better off person who thinks they are above the law.parking in a disabled bay with blue badge incorrectly displayed. The blue badge scheme is a Government concession to the disabled to allow them to park mostly unrestricted near where they need to go. If on a private car park the blue badge carries no authority other then to show a person in the car is disabled. The blue badge can be displayed in any which way the person chooses to display it as it carries no authority with the PPC other then to prove the person is disabled. Any charging for this can only be a revenue earner!
Totally agreed and as such we operate no sites which are fixed return periods.Returning to car park within the restricted time This is another clause simply to gain revenue. I go to B&Q buy a pot of paint go home wifey sends me back as she don't like it. I have returned within the restricted time yet I have the right to do so without being penalised. Another instance we have read many here A customer goes to McDs has something to eat, picks up relative who decides they are hungry back to McDs. Letter in post parking charge. If they are customers they have the right to go as often and as many times as they like. So again this clause can only be seen as a revenue earner.
Our sucessful appeals percentage is about 40% but this fluctuates with time of year and situation. For example the failing to display a valid P+D ticket is rarely appealable but we do give some the benefit of doubt. I personall ensure to check the footwells and seats for a ticket as i know people claim they fall off.The whole issue is with many I believe is this industry has been set up not to alleviate car park abuse but to earn revenue, and not from the abusers, but from the unwary who contravene some clause which is set to trap them.
Finally you may run an ethical company, and others could be damaging your industry at your expense. One of the main criticism is the appeals process, which on a whole is a letter saying "unsuccessful" can you confirm the percentage rate of successful appeals you allow?
Failing to display a valid permit is usually only arguable if :
a) the permit is stolen and been reported to us of the company
b) The vehicle is listed as an ok vehicle in which case we shouldnt have issued the ticket in the first place really
c) The person is a genuine person on business and the company confirms this.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
Banks charge a fixed fee per day as this is their banking Period. PPC's operate on a minute by minute basis so does this mean i can apply fees for every minute? If you go 1p overdrawn with lloyds you used to get charged £30 a day up to about 10 times i tihnk so 1p could cost me £300.
No you have signed a contract with a bank, where you agree that if you borrow their money [or ours as a lot of it is now] without permission you will be charged. The admin fee is a one off and stated charge.
Indeed. In norwich there is a car park not run by us which is abused on this basis daily. It is now run by G24 who used fixed ANPR so you dont even get a ticket.
I agree on that one and abusers should be the ones charged a justifiable amount.
Other methods such as? A polite notice will definitely be ignored if people ignore tickets then who cares about a polite peice of papaper saying "please dont park here its my land"
I don't for one moment believe it would. I do however believe there is a better way of dealing with this abuse.
Only if they specifically shop at the retail units for whom the car park was provided otherwise they are as bad as the commuter. If they come to the retail unit park in the car park then go shopping in the city to avoid fees then whats the difference? If however they remain solely on the retail park using only the retail units then they could produce reciepts to this effect i would cancel the ticket regardless of the time limits on the site. I work for the retailer so by penalising their customer i would infact annoy them and over time risk losing the contract.
Agreed they should be using the outlets who pay for the car park. I am pleased to see that if the driver proved they were you would cancel the charge. I am however afraid you are very much in the minority on that.
No its also set up to allow the turnover of spaces to enable a larger number of shoppers to use a site
Then the restriction should read parking for the duration of using the facilities of the owners.
I saw this yesterday where a P+D barriered car park was showing as having spaces but infact due to a vehicle being maybe 10% into another bay so i was driving round looking for a space which didnt exsist.This again wasnt my site but a major indoor shopping centre. In the run up to xmas the driver was blatantly showing no regard for other shoppers.
I agree people who do that in my opinion deserve to be charged. It was the slightly over the line ones I was more interested in. which do not stop the next bay from being used.
Legally companies are required to provide 6% of their spaces as designated disabled bays. Short of stanidng and watching and assessing (which would probably be classed as illegal) every vehicle and their drivers there is no glogal way of policing this issue to keep spaces for people who NEED these spaces so we have the interest of others in heart. We dont actually check the disbaled badge but if we can see one displayed we leave it alone thats the end of it. The worst offenders for parkign in disbaled bays are the "boy racer" type and the middle aged better off person who thinks they are above the law.
OK your company see a disabled badge whatever way it is displayed and leave the car alone. That,s the way it should be. However once again your company is in the minority I believe. I agree with you on the most common abusers and there total lack of respect offers them open to what ever fate becomes them.
Totally agreed and as such we operate no sites which are fixed return periods.
That's I think the way it should be.
Our sucessful appeals percentage is about 40% but this fluctuates with time of year and situation. For example the failing to display a valid P+D ticket is rarely appealable but we do give some the benefit of doubt. I personall ensure to check the footwells and seats for a ticket as i know people claim they fall off.
Failing to display a valid permit is usually only arguable if :
a) the permit is stolen and been reported to us of the company
b) The vehicle is listed as an ok vehicle in which case we shouldnt have issued the ticket in the first place really
c) The person is a genuine person on business and the company confirms this.
If your appeals success rate is 40% I would think most would accept that to be about right, I believe official PCN appeals are higher but given a lot of them would be on regulation mishaps, 40% seems fair, but once again I am afraid your company seems to be in the minority.0 -
This is the way i pride myself in operating. If I operate ethically and fairly then i have no bad feelings or even the chance of guilt.If your appeals success rate is 40% I would think most would accept that to be about right, I believe official PCN appeals are higher but given a lot of them would be on regulation mishaps, 40% seems fair, but once again I am afraid your company seems to be in the minority.
40% is normally the lowest our appeals go to.. As a side line if we do ticket someone who can prove they had good reason to eb in the area (ie an electrician working on a nearby site) but they have no reason to park int he space we will often lower the price. One person i dealt with last week admitted to being there. Admitted to seeing the signs. Agreed he would not park there in the future and then explained that he had been workign for £50 a day on a 2 day job. He did have a council permit but it clearly would nto be valid on land controlled by us. As a good will getsutre (and it is goodwill not us being incorrect or anything) i agreed with this gentleman to accept 50% in terms of his situation.
Another person appealed and denied being on the site for as long as he was and also said the ticket was issued at an incorrect time. The problem with his appeal was when i sent him CCTV evidence of him being on a no parking ACCESS road for 41 minutes he could not deny it. He asked his options which i told him were pay or i would have to follow proceeding (remeber he had denied at all times any wrong doing until given evidence so he had in effect lied to me for 2 weeks). He explained he gets paid monthly and his next payment was due just before new year. I agreed to hold his ticket with myself and not instruct any debt ollectors on the terms he paid the full amount before the 7th Jan 2011 (this is 2 weeks after his due pay date to allow him time to pay).
I think both the examples above show that i do operate my company fairly (yes people will cme on here and post i should not issue tickets at all but then should undertakers charge to bury people?)
I also often find the trade rep goes before me and as such i have to explain very similar to how i have done on here in the last few days how i operate and each of my policies with regards to every situation.
And on the blue badge thing it is one thing that really annoys me people parking without a blue badge when they are in a disabled space but yes if me or any of my staff see a blue badge we dont even inspect the clock or anything as we also appreciate that less able people may take longer to do some tasks.
Im not here to upset anyone or ruin their days which is why i try to act fairly.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
Obviously you're working with a contractual arrangement between you and car drivers. How watertight is that contract? I'm assuming you're not overly confident with it if you never issue court claims? Actual loss apparently justified by your costs doesn't wash in court or feature in the contracts PPCs like to think are valid.
It seems that there is a conflict between a legally watertight contract and turning over profit. Can the post 'misdemeanour' ticketing operation ever be anything other than an attempt to coerce people into paying a sum they are not legally obliged to?
Enforceable contracts can be formed which appear to offer little return, or expensive ticket machines can be installed which cost a lot of outlay. Small businesses need to make money, but how can they do that by circumventing existing contract law?
Why do PPCs offer 'appeals' when I've never had a BT bill which offers me the chance to appeal?0 -
For me to issue court summons alone takes time then the time taken to go to court and so on would not justify the effort needed.Obviously you're working with a contractual arrangement between you and car drivers. How watertight is that contract? I'm assuming you're not overly confident with it if you never issue court claims? Actual loss apparently justified by your costs doesn't wash in court or feature in the contracts PPCs like to think are valid.
Failure to pay for services rendered is an offence which can eb taken to court. in this case the Service is parking. The Parking Charge notice is an invoice for that service.It seems that there is a conflict between a legally watertight contract and turning over profit. Can the post 'misdemeanour' ticketing operation ever be anything other than an attempt to coerce people into paying a sum they are not legally obliged to?
Before i answer this question can you show me any point where any of what i have said shows me to break any law contract or otherwise?Enforceable contracts can be formed which appear to offer little return, or expensive ticket machines can be installed which cost a lot of outlay. Small businesses need to make money, but how can they do that by circumventing existing contract law?
Whilst Bt do not directly offer an appeals process they have an itemised bill which is linked directly to your telehpone .. However if you notice an item on that bill which you do not feel is correct do you just leave it or do you appeal? The difference between PPC's and BT is we clearly give the right of appeal.Why do PPCs offer 'appeals' when I've never had a BT bill which offers me the chance to appeal?Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
"Failure to pay for services rendered is an offence which can eb taken to court"
Failure to pay for contractually agreed services is a breach of contract. It can be enforced by a court if the court finds the contract is accepted by both parties and is not unfairly loaded.
However it is not an offence, an offence is a breach of a law.0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 351.9K Banking & Borrowing
- 253.5K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 454.1K Spending & Discounts
- 244.9K Work, Benefits & Business
- 600.5K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 177.4K Life & Family
- 258.7K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.2K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.6K Read-Only Boards