Metro Penalty Fare Notice

bigturnip

geordieracer wrote: »

Unlike you i cant seem to be on here day after day trying to find a way of not paying what is due.

No, but you come on here day after day defending the indefensible. If you think it is right to charge somebody an admin fee for a fine they were never informed of in the first place and then to be charged a further fee without being notified then there is clearly something a little bit wrong with you.

If that is how the system works and the court upholds it then the law is an ar.se, but from experience the law generally isn't an ar.se, there are just a lot of people in this world who would have you believe it is.

bigturnip

geordieracer wrote: »

Have you read anything in this thread? Then if you did you would have realised that my first advice saying pay it would have set you up.

So your advice is to pay a charge you don't believe you're liable for? Perhaps you would also like to advise everybody accused of a crime to confess and face the consequences regardless of whether they have committed the crime or not.

geordieracer wrote: »

Its not biased it is telling the FACTS...

What facts? I must have missed them somewhere.

geordieracer wrote: »

again its very very very rare that the TOCs lose.

Probably because it's very very very rare that a TOC takes a case to court that it thinks it will lose.

unluckymike

All TOC's run under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Point 4 is about Penalty Fares.

If you travel without a ticket or permission to travel you may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

Point 24 is about Lost, Stolen and Mislaid tickets.

Basically you are responsible for your ticket, irrespective what age you are.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Also to note a point made by someone earlier. If you give an authorised person, ie guard, conductor, ticket examiner etc, false details such as name and address you are committing a criminal offence. This is also been confirmed by British Transport Police and also nationwide Police forces.

Don't run the risk. Buy before you board. If you lose a ticket as a child, explain to the person in charge of the train and physically look for them. You may be surprised that they may use their discretion to allow you to travel without the need of the paperwork trail.

Livingthedream

geordieracer wrote: »

...again its very very very rare that the TOCs lose.

That's because the train company prosecute under 1 of the following bylaws;

i) the strict liability offence of 'Fail to show a valid ticket' contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005)

or

ii) 'intent to avoid a rail fare' contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889)

Which are undefendable in a court of law, if the case is defendable they won't take it to court, read this thread on how a train company bottled it

Now the issue I read here is that the OP has already paid the Penalty fare, therefore, cancelling both these bylaws.

So if the train company wants its Admin fee it has to go down the civil recovery route, which isn't worth the cost or effort.

Or they could be very nasty and return the the penalty fare payment and inform the OP of intended criminal prosecution under 1 of the bylaws stated above.

Spartacus_Mills

Livingthedream wrote: »

Which are undefendable in a court of law, if the case is defendable they won't take it to court, read this thread on how a train company bottled it

That case you cite with Somersetboy as the complainant was one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.

The TOC's needed to apply a little bit of commonsense and not treat him as a criminal. However claiming they bottled it is a little extreme. Perhaps they saw commonsense and realised their position was ludicrous.

In this case, as I have worked in the rail industry, I understand where Geordie Racer is coming from and surely if the Admin Fee can be justified (costs broken down, etc) then it can be applied ?

Really I think Macthemountie needs to pee or get off the pot now as we have pretty much talked this one to death and I doubt any side will agree with the other.

As for the digs at Revenue protection personnel remember if people did not try to cheat the system they would not be necessary. It is not an easy job, I spent a day with them once, and believe me it is tough.

taffy056

unluckymike wrote: »

All TOC's run under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Point 4 is about Penalty Fares.

If you travel without a ticket or permission to travel you may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

Which has been paid already

unluckymike wrote: »

Point 24 is about Lost, Stolen and Mislaid tickets.

Basically you are responsible for your ticket, irrespective what age you are.

So if you have been mugged on the train and your wallet taken, its alright you are about to have a penalty fare on top!

unluckymike wrote: »

Also to note a point made by someone earlier. If you give an authorised person, ie guard, conductor, ticket examiner etc, false details such as name and address you are committing a criminal offence. This is also been confirmed by British Transport Police and also nationwide Police forces.

Completely irrelevant as the child gave the correct details, otherwise the parents would have heard nothing!

unluckymike wrote: »

Don't run the risk. Buy before you board. If you lose a ticket as a child, explain to the person in charge of the train and physically look for them. You may be surprised that they may use their discretion to allow you to travel without the need of the paperwork trail.

Yes they used their discretion, a penalty fare was issued!

Livingthedream

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

Perhaps they saw commonsense and realised their position was ludicrous.

No, I disagree there, the train company and passengerfocus tried to bully somersetboy into paying, when somersetboy stud his ground the train company knew their case was unattainable, this IMHO had nothing whatsoever to do with commonsense.

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

In this case, as I have worked in the rail industry, I understand where Geordie Racer is coming from.

Agreed, stated this in post 201 above.

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

Really I think Macthemountie needs to pee or get off the pot now as we have pretty much talked this one to death and I doubt any side will agree with the other.

As long as he posts back here on his outcome with the train company.

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

As for the digs at Revenue protection personnel remember if people did not try to cheat the system they would not be necessary. It is not an easy job, I spent a day with them once, and believe me it is tough.

I can't remember having a dig at an RPI.

Spartacus_Mills

Livingthedream wrote: »

I can't remember having a dig at an RPI.

I never said you did. I was making a general point. Some others certainly have.

taffy056

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

I never said you did. I was making a general point. Some others certainly have.

You are going to have people taking a dig at these people, because of the fact they are making commission out of each pfn issued, where its in their interest to profit out of it you are not going to get a common sense approach imo

I also question a body that is supposed to be independent that you appeal too, which in fact is owned and run and paid for by a railway company, how can that be independent ? Really its the network looking after itself, wonder if a foi request would be allowed and if they would reveal how many appeals they have had, and how many were successful ?

crackers247

Hi Taffy


after reading this thread it appears you have no idea what you are going on about.. can you fill us all in with more words of your wisdom please.