Metro Penalty Fare Notice

king100

Fergie76 wrote: »

I missed the bit where they said it was compulsory to read and post in this thread???

Remember it says freddie is always right though.

geordieracer

Fergie76 wrote: »

But as you have been telling us all along, it's not the parents fault it's the daughters, so why write to the parents at all???



Good, and as I said before, I would let this go to court and the can so do a financial assessment on the childs affairs and then they could pay it back 50p a week from their pocket money, but I don't think they would take a child to court, as the company would look rather silly, just like you are here.

I dont look silly at all.. As i have said just after the part about the letter being to her mam it was probably addressed to Miss OP name ... And her mam probably opened it by mistake thinking it was for her - How many 15 year olds get letters of any sort anyway.

i dont work for IFPAS they are an independent body who you can appeal the original penalty fare to within a certain amount of days. In this case it wasnt even addressed so by not making any contact they then take it on to the next level which is an increase in the penalty fare.

The child is above the age of criminal consent - she broke a by law by travelling without a valid ticket and i quote to all those who think the police would not pursue it either.

"no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel."

This byelaw is punishable by a fine of up to £1000 and/or up to three months in prison. .

Im leaving this thread now as some of you will not be told

geordieracer

oops i forgot to add this lovely post from a few years ago where someone else argued all day long about not wanting to pay the penalty fare..

Under the penalty fare rules, and more importantly the regulation of the railways act 1889 it is an offence to board a train without a ticket or relevant permission (i.e permit to travel, a notice indicating it is Ok to buy tickets on the train, rail staff telling you to buy on the train etc.)
It is your responsibility to ensure you allow enough time for your journey and allow enough time to purchase a ticket. Simply being late, or arriving minutes before your train does NOT give you the right to get on the train without a ticket. It is not the train companies fault you are late, and how long it is reasonable to wait to buy a ticket is open to interpretation however in my experience it is a lot longer than three minutes.
You do not mention which station it is you boarded from, but if they have ticket machines or permit machines in addition to the ticket office then obviously there was an alternative method to buy tickets, again undermining your three minute arguement.
DO NOT even think about small claims court, you simply will not win. As for those saying it wouldn't be worth the train companies while fighting you there, it will. If they do not fight, and win, they will not be able to issue another penalty fare. The relative costs to the company are minimal, each TOC has it's own legal department who deal with this sort of thing every day and are paid solely to fight and prosecute these cases in the courts.
Your right of appeal was IPFAS, the Independant Penalty fare appeals service. As you may gather from the title, this is an INDEPENDANT body who are nothing to do with the train company who issued the penalty fare. They allow 21 days to respond to the penalty fare notice and submit you case for appeal. This time is set down by law, as is the criteria by which they measure each penalty fare issue. If you have not managed to submit an appeal within this period that is down to you. There is a reason that everything is done through the post and not on the phone, (without wanting to sound threatening) they need to keep track of all correspondence with you so they can present it in court at a later date, obviously a phone call you have no record of whereas letters you will have and therefore cannot dispute in court.
As unhelpful as this may sound, you were issued a penalty fare correctly - in accordance with the penalty fare rules and relevant acts of parliament. However understandable your reasons, you boarded a train without a ticket. Period. This is the only fact the train company needs to prove, and is a fact you have not disputed. Railway byelaw 18 states that:

"no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel."

This byelaw is punishable by a fine of up to £1000 and/or up to three months in prison.

If I was you I would put it down to experience and pay the penalty fare. From everything you have said, you do not have a case to fight it and the train company have a case you cannot dispute - you were unable to produce a valid ticket for the journey you were making.
If you do not pay the penalty fare by the date the set down they can add reasonable charges on top. They can, and very often do, chase any remaining amount through the magistrates court again adding reasonable costs (in this case set by the magistrate) on top. All of a sudden a £20 Penalty fare can start to add up to 100's of pounds.
Also, on a point of law what a penalty fare is is just that a fare, the penalty fare notice is from a legal point of view a ticket. DO NOT confuse this with a fine, as such you cannot dispute the issue of the notice in quite the same way as a fine, as the train company openly advertise that this is what you may have to pay if you board the train without a ticket.
Again, I emphasise the fact you did not have a vaild ticket for travel. Unless you can dispute this point you have no case, your reasons for not having a ticket are unfortunately irrelevant - you have gone past your 21 days to make your case.
Seriously, put it down to experience and pay up, it isn't worth the hassle, you will not win.

king100

geordieracer wrote: »

I dont look silly at all.. As i have said just after the part about the letter being to her mam it was probably addressed to Miss OP name ... And her mam probably opened it by mistake thinking it was for her - How many 15 year olds get letters of any sort anyway.

i dont work for IFPAS they are an independent body who you can appeal the original penalty fare to within a certain amount of days. In this case it wasnt even addressed so by not making any contact they then take it on to the next level which is an increase in the penalty fare.

The child is above the age of criminal consent - she broke a by law by travelling without a valid ticket and i quote to all those who think the police would not pursue it either.



Im leaving this thread now as some of you will not be told

Railway Act 1889 section 5, by giving name and address then there is no proof of intent to commit an offence. The money owed for the journey made become a CIVIL DEBT.

So criminal consent doesnt come into it. Its a civil matter.

If she didnt give name and address it gives intent to to commit an offence.

king100

the arguement has moved on from not wanting to pay the fine to the authorities should have contacted the parents in this matter. You really have missed that point. They are not disputing the fine just the manner on how the fine was issued to a child. Child ticket child in the eyes of the train company thus they should have informed the parents.

king100

on another point as far as she was aware according to the OP, she did buy a ticket and lost it

"no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

so she had a ticket thus not breaking the law, when asked to produce she couldent as she had lost it.

geordieracer

king100 wrote: »

on another point as far as she was aware according to the OP, she did buy a ticket and lost it

"no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

so she had a ticket thus not breaking the law, when asked to produce she couldent as she had lost it.

But how are we to know she really bought a ticket? We dont. And that is such a poor excuse of ' I gave it to my friend to look after'

You dont seem able to understand how many kids try this on thinking we have never heard the excuses before - even adults do it. If she had a recipet for her ticket she may have got away with it.

Plus in relation to your post about it being a civil debt - I like the way you have not read a little bit further in my post

This byelaw is punishable by a fine of up to £1000 and/or up to three months in prison. .

Thats some mighty piece of civil law we hold if we can get you in jail for it.

I fully understand about you thinkin we shouldve written to her parents about the fine but again she is of the age of criminal liability so we dont have to.

king100

geordieracer wrote: »

But how are we to know she really bought a ticket? We dont. And that is such a poor excuse of ' I gave it to my friend to look after'

You dont seem able to understand how many kids try this on thinking we have never heard the excuses before - even adults do it. If she had a recipet for her ticket she may have got away with it.

Plus in relation to your post about it being a civil debt - I like the way you have not read a little bit further in my post



Thats some mighty piece of civil law we hold if we can get you in jail for it.

I fully understand about you thinkin we shouldve written to her parents about the fine but again she is of the age of criminal liability so we dont have to.

If you kill someone they say you can go in prison for 25 years but you dont.

The penalty notice, as she gave name and address is a civil matter, if she didnt give her name then she can be detained by the ticket inspector and police called, then she will be arrested and charge with an offence therefore a criminal matter.

You need to learn what difference between civil and criminal is?

in this case its a civil matter. I dont dispute that fare dodgying cannot turn into a criminal matter but in this case it isnt. So as her being of criminal age it is irrelevant.

anewman

Bashy wrote: »

Wow there are some perfect parents in here, Its fine you be bad and i will take it out of your pocket money etc, Some kids dont get anything because some of us cant afford to give kids pocket money never mind pay a fine,

Thanks for this, I'm glad I am not the only child brought up in a single parent family when my mum got virtually no money. Was always envious of the pocket money other kids got and their Christmas presents. If I had to save up pocket money to pay a £50 fine then I'd never have managed it (adulthood will have been reached first).

By the way shouldn't we just end up with a simple solution such as if you're old enough to have sex, work, and live on your own (16 onwards) then you're old enough to be fined otherwise you are not.

taffy056

geordieracer wrote: »

i dont work for IFPAS they are an independent body who you can appeal the original penalty fare to within a certain amount of days.

They are not independent as they are owned by a train company, an independent body would have no connection like PATAS for appealing parking tickets