Cameron 'slips up' over World War II history

Lotus-eater

Thrugelmir wrote: »

What strategic purpose was there to the invasion of the UK though?

It would put us out of the war and stop any outside help coming into Europe.

The Japanese thing to one side, everything else you mention don't count, because they would never have happened, we would have been out of the war effectively in 39/40. We could never have got the USA into the war by declaring war on Japan, the USA would never have gone to war against Germany.

Germany would have won, of course what happened after that with the USSR no one knows, it could have gone many different ways.

ninky_2

Lotus-eater wrote: »

I don't think immigration would be an issue!

so is that a good or bad thing?

Thrugelmir

FTBFun wrote: »

Far East......Kent?

Yeah somebody wanted to open Kentucky outlet next to a Sushi bar. In fact we're lucky we've got hamburgers now and not sauerkraut.

Lotus-eater

ninky wrote: »

so is that a good or bad thing?

It's neither, just a fact. What someone else might think of it, is something else.

You could argue that if Germany beat us, eventually it would have gone to war against the USSR, the probability was high, if so, the USSR not Germany would be in control of the UK now, if they won of course, which is more difficult to work out.

btw, the T34 didn't outgun the Tiger, beat it in virtually every other way mind.

Bearing in mind Hitler was a vegetarian and the SS were heavily into Organic principles, the world could arguably be in a better place than it is today, the earth................not the people

It's all fascinating to think about. Sorry if I'm boring anyone

lemonjelly

ninky wrote: »

what would life be like now if hitler had won?

I'd suggest this book could answer that question...

Thrugelmir

Lotus-eater wrote: »

It's neither, just a fact. What someone else might think of it, is something else.

You could argue that if Germany beat us, eventually it would have gone to war against the USSR, the probability was high, if so, the USSR not Germany would be in control of the UK now, if they won of course, which is more difficult to work out.

btw, the T34 didn't outgun the Tiger, beat it in virtually every other way mind.

Bearing in mind Hitler was a vegetarian and the SS were heavily into Organic principles, the world could arguably be in a better place than it is today, the earth................not the people

It's all fascinating to think about. Sorry if I'm boring anyone

Thanks for the interesting exchange. :beer:

neverdespairgirl

tincans wrote: »

Poland the country was betrayed at Yalta. I doubt after fighting the Germans longer than anyone else that they delighted in the allies allowing (conniving) a puppet communist government to take over.

Poland was effectivley given to Stalin.

Sorry, I thought you meant Polish pilots were screwed over - not Poland (which certainly was)

ruggedtoast

That was one of the strengths of the Russian armour though. It was reliable, easy to repair and cheap to make in vast numbers. There was no point in the Russians designing complicated machinery they couldn't repair in the field. One operational t-34 beats 10 immobile tigers.

marklv

brit1234 wrote: »

Sorry have to strongly disagree. Britain had a major part and the most significant part in defeating the axis. To say otherwise is to ignore the dozens of key actions which significantly turned the war.

Remember the many actions of the British that led Britain being the thorn in the Nazi side.

• The rescue of the BEF, French and Belgium troops at Dunkirk
• The defeat of the Luftwaffe in the battle of Britain destroying much of their fighters, bombers and pilots. Giving air superiority for the rest of the war.
• Creating, coordinating, transporting and supplying resistance units, commandos, spies, saboteurs in their missions. Which forced the Germans to be overstretched and Vulnerable. It also led to the most important raids of all that destroyed the German heavy water factory and equipment stopping the Germans get nuclear weapons.
• Cracking the enigma code.
• Destroying the Wolf Packs
• Destroying the French German sub pens
• Sinking the Bismark
• Crippling the Graff Spre
• The Battle of Malta, crippling both the German and Italian Armies.
• The North Africa Campaign (I admit later we had US tanks but we bought them and they were also supplying Germans stuff up till Pearl Harbour). This gave us the first European Front into Italy
• The key Russian North Atlantic Supplies allowing the Russians to rearm and set up new factories in eastern Russia. Later the Americans would Help.
• D Day we took our Beaches when the Americans were having problems revealing pressure on them and stopping a withdrawal.

There are countless more

America came more significant after d day I admit that, but that led to bitter infighting with British American Rivalry. Even though we did bail them out in Battle of the Bulge.

The area where USA was major and we were minor was the pacific

The British won several important defensive victories against the Axis forces, but it is clear to any serious historian that Britain alone (even with the support of the empire and commonwealth) could not have decisively defeated the Axis. At best, Britain could have tried to negotiate an advantageous peace with Hitler, but no more than that without American help. Churchill knew this very well, but he banked on America joining at some stage, hence all the bluster about 'fighting on the beaches, landing grounds' etc.

marklv

ruggedtoast wrote: »

No such thing was obvious. Both blocs would have swallowed up Britain eventually if they had gained control of Europe.

The rationale for entering the war was that if we hadnt, either the Nazis (probably very quickly ), or the Soviet Union (perhaps eventually) would have won. That would have meant the entire continent of Europe under the complete control of an expansionist, power hungry, and somewhat mental, dictator.

Britain declared war on Germany and began supplying the Russians in an attempt to prevent this happening.

The fact we held out for years, beating the Germans in the air, on the sea, fighting them to a standstill on important theatres on the ground, while simultaneously being pummelled by bombing on civilian centres and still supplying the Russian landwar with no help at all from our "Special Relationship" friend until they had a) made a fortune out of all this misery and b) could join the watr at a point they were pretty sure they couldnt lose, was not a "small contribution".

Its interesting that the Americans always come out with the "You'd be speaking German if it wasnt for us line" As there just as much evidence to suggest that if we hadnt stopped Hitler overrunning Russia, so would they.

Edit: dont even get me started on the French.

We did not hold out for years, only from 1939 to 1941 - after June 1941 we were no longer the main attention of Hitler. If Hitler had invaded the middle east instead of Russia in 1941 we would have been well and truly screwed, as it would have given the Germans control of the oil producing areas and broken the essential communications route within the British Empire and Commonwealth.