Cameron 'slips up' over World War II history

ruggedtoast

marklv wrote: »

The Luftwaffe was only defeated because Hitler decided to retaliate to a minor British air raid on Germany, which was done as a reprisal for an accidental drop of a few bombs by a German plane on a London residential area. The Blitz came as a result of this. Tit for tat. By taking the pressure off the RAF it allowed the RAF time to recover and get back to strength. If the Germans had continued the offensive against the RAF airfields they would eventually have gained the air superiority they needed - all historians agree on this. This despite the fact that German plane losses were signifcantly higher than the British ones. What is the debatable point is whether this superiority would have sufficed to have allowed a successful amphibious crossing - that is another issue altogether. By September 1940 it was getting late for the weather and tide to be favourable, and the RN still remained a threat. Churchill would happily have sacrificed most of the RN if necessary, in order to stop a German invasion.

The best German route to victory would have been a middle eastern push that could have reached India, combined with a southern push through Africa to South Africa. With these losses there is no way that Winston would have survived a vote of confidence in the Commons. Britain would have had to sue for peace.

It's also worth noting that German factories in 1940 were still operating on single daytime shifts. Women were not asked to work in factories until very late in the war, while in Britain there was a full war economy already in 1940. Hitler expected a cheap and quick victory.

So if a lot of things that set off a certain chain of events had been completely different. Then other things would have been completely different as well?

I see.

StevieJ

marklv wrote: »

This isn't just about oilfields - Germany was principally supplied by Romania for oil and natural gas. This is about forcing the British to the negotiating table - and only a strategic success in this region would have achieved this.

Yes but it wasn't enough that is why they were also desperately developing synthetic fuels,

neverdespairgirl

StevieJ wrote: »

Remember that argument you had many moons ago about whether it was in Cheshire or not, the first time I was aware of your sensible posts

I do indeed - my parents were both born there, and are both certain it's Cheshire (-: It's not now, it was then.

I know my Grandfather lived there most of his life, but he was born in Wales.

neverdespairgirl

Lotus-eater wrote: »

He had alot more than that, they'd started gathering barges from all over Europe and adapting them into landing craft of a sort.

Operation Sea Lion was quite advanced, I think - you're right.

Lotus-eater

ruggedtoast wrote: »

This is factually wrong in so many ways I dont know how to begin to correct you. So I wont bother.

You are right in some instances though. The Luftwaffe was roundly defeated by the RAF.

There was one mistake, Hitler only met Edward viii once I think after just checking, I didn't think any other facts were wrong, some of it is my own ideas and some just guessing about what was going on.
You are welcome to pull me up on anything I have factually written incorrectly, we all make mistakes and remember things badly.

The Luftwaffe was hardly roundly defeated by the RAF, as Mark says, it was touch and go. Hitler made a mistake and bombed London and let the RAF off, he thought they were much more hurt than they were.....well and lots of other reasons, but in the end got into a rage and cocked up.

Lotus-eater

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

Operation Sea Lion was quite advanced, I think - you're right.

There is plenty of arguing about how far advanced and how serious Hitler was about invading England between historians. I don't think we'll ever know.

IMHO I don't think it was ever given the resources or commitment that it needed to make it work. Whenever I look at the details it always seems to be a half hearted attempt. But it's good for an argument over a beer

neverdespairgirl

I think Hitler was far keener on it than the rest of his crowd?

Lotus-eater

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

I think Hitler was far keener on it than the rest of his crowd?

That's a very good leading question

The crowd, did as they were told. Same as Stalin, Military effectiveness was secondary to butt licking.

Germany's military commanders were among the best in the world at the time, with forward looking tactics and advanced understanding of the way modern warfare was to be.
Hitler was not a military man, no matter how much he wanted to be. Better to be in Germany at the start of the war and not the USSR, because be in the latter and be militarily talented, you'd probably already be dead.

Edit, Sorry, to answer your question, Hitler's Generals would have invaded England, as long as it were military feasible. Which it never was. The reason why it never was, is the cause of vast debates Did they want to? Didn't compute, they did what they were told.

marklv

Getting back to the original focus of this thread, it's pathetic for Cameron to have made such a huge gaffe. So much for the much vaunted independent schooling.

headcone

Lions led by donkeys.

Any other historical debate must be prefaced by this.