Cameron 'slips up' over World War II history

StevieJ

Spot the mistake :eek: not to mention the junior bit.

"I think it is important in life to speak as it is and the fact is that we are a very effective partner of the US but we are the junior partner," he said.
"We were the junior partner in 1940 when we were fighting the Nazis."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10719739

mbga9pgf

We both were behind the soviets, who lost 20 million citizens versus the 6 million Jews that died.

You could argue without the us manufacturing powerhouse, we were toast anyway.

That said, the contribution we made was smaller, but was very significant. Look to the SOE irregular units and of course bletchly park, which all made significant differences to the outcome. Badly worded by dave but not wrong.

Thrugelmir

Without the importation of raw materials that enabled the UK to build the planes that saved the country in the skies over Southern England in 1940. History could be so different now.

We owe the US a debt of thanks. As D-Day was not the picnic that films portray.

MissMoneypenny

I think that he is saying that we are the junior partner now, so that we aren't asked to do too much again. Our numbers are much smaller than the USA.

marklv

mbga9pgf wrote: »

We both were behind the soviets, who lost 20 million citizens versus the 6 million Jews that died.

You could argue without the us manufacturing powerhouse, we were toast anyway.

That said, the contribution we made was smaller, but was very significant. Look to the SOE irregular units and of course bletchly park, which all made significant differences to the outcome. Badly worded by dave but not wrong.

What have the 6 million Jews got to do with it? They were civilian non-combatants and were either deliberately murdered or 'allowed to die by neglect' through various means. Jews in allied armies (other than the Soviet) were generally treated according to the Geneva Convention, but only because they were combatants. British military and civilian deaths in WW2 numbered some 450,000 - roughly just over half the number who died in WW1 - not a large number by any means, especially in a total war of this global nature. We got off incredibly lightly.

The American contribution did not speed up Hitler's defeat hugely. But it did prevent a complete Soviet takeover of all Europe, as without US troops Britain could not have launched an invasion of France as well as waging a campaign in the Mediterrenean. Having said that, the Western allies could have landed in northern France in the Summer of 1943 - the troops were in place. If this had happened Germany would have been defeated before the end of 1944 and the Russians would have been held back well to the east of Berlin. The demand for unconditional surrender at the Casablanca Conference also didn't help matters, as it stiffened German reistance and increased popular support for Hitler within Germany.

StevieJ

mbga9pgf wrote: »

We both were behind the soviets, who lost 20 million citizens versus the 6 million Jews that died.

You could argue without the us manufacturing powerhouse, we were toast anyway.

That said, the contribution we made was smaller, but was very significant. Look to the SOE irregular units and of course bletchly park, which all made significant differences to the outcome. Badly worded by dave but not wrong.

I think the main point was that the US was nowhere to be seen in 1940, certainly not the senior partner.

marklv

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Without the importation of raw materials that enabled the UK to build the planes that saved the country in the skies over Southern England in 1940. History could be so different now.

We owe the US a debt of thanks. As D-Day was not the picnic that films portray.

We do not owe the Americans any thanks. What they gave us was not free - it had to be paid and paid at high prices. Until Pearl Harbour the Americans had no interest in a military adventure in Europe unless directly attacked first. Not that I can blame them - it was the British government that decided to declare war on Germany in 1939 despite it being obvious that Hitler was no directly hostile intentions towards Britain. Letting the Nazis and the Commies fight it out would have exhausted both powers while allowing Britain more breathing space and valuable time to prepare her defences. It was no sense to declare war to protect Poland, which could not be defended by British or French forces anyway.

By the way, read what our brave and noble American friends had in mind for occupied Germany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_plan

The section on food rations makes for particularly interesting reading. No doubt a similar approach was enforced on Iraq after the 2003 invasion.

marklv

I'm not a huge fan of Wikipedia, but their article on WW2 losses is the most comprehensive I've ever seen on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

It shows how astonishingly low British and American losses were when compared to Germany, the USSR, Poland and other nations from central and eastern Europe.

1984ReturnsForReal_2

China had a good bash at winning the total losses title...

Generali

I find the national myths quite funny. The British seem to think they won the war single-handed with the Yanks only showing up at the end to take all the glory, if you believe the French about the level of resistance to German rule it's amazing they ever held on to the country and Australians seem to think that the only deaths of note in the Great War were at Gallipoli.

It's nonsense, just like the stuff about the NHS being the envy of the world or the whole of Asia wanting to live in Cabramatta in Sydney or people chosing to learn English rather than French because of an anti-French conspiracy by the Anglophone nations.

Cameron did screw up his dates. The thrust of what he was saying is IMO historically accurate, that Britain played a pretty minor although important part in the defeat of the Axis.

diable

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Without the importation of raw materials that enabled the UK to build the planes that saved the country in the skies over Southern England in 1940. History could be so different now.

We owe the US a debt of thanks. As D-Day was not the picnic that films portray.

Polish pilots helped and got fcuked over after the war ended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._303_Polish_Fighter_Squadron