Cameron 'slips up' over World War II history

neverdespairgirl

My paternal grandfather spent quite a bit of the early 1940s pottering around the Middle East in a tank.

Thrugelmir

vaporate wrote: »

this 'thank america' crap is a joke on a super ignorant level.

Then maybe you should read up history before passing judgement.

StevieJ

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

My paternal grandfather spent quite a bit of the early 1940s pottering around the Middle East in a tank.

Was it this guy out of Please Sir, he was always saying he was a Desert Rat




And

Deryck Guyler was born on 29 April, 1914, in Wallasey, Cheshire, the only child of Elsie and Samuel Guyler.

neverdespairgirl

StevieJ wrote: »

Was it this guy out of Please Sir, he was always saying he was a Desert Rat




And

No - but he was from Wallasey, Cheshire!

Lotus-eater

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

Hitler was pretty keen on the whole idea - had whole plans and designs drawn up for it.

He had alot more than that, they'd started gathering barges from all over Europe and adapting them into landing craft of a sort.
Yet historians (which I am not) are divided on how serious Hitler was, he was known for the liking of English history and not only thought we would roll over eventually, but really, never took us seriously, just as you would a tiny yapping dog.
And he had a right to, we were beaten, the army was on it's knees and had virtually no equipment, most of that was left in France and was used by the German army.
As everyone knows of course, it was the RAF that stopped us being invaded and only then because of foreign pilots. But really it was Hitlers choice to hit London instead of the RAF, that saved the RAF and also Hitler just lost interest in the UK, like a toy that was annoying to play with and not worth the effort when you did.

And we were saved, not by the brilliance and bravery of our boys (of which there was alot also), but by that narrow piece of water called the English channel. That and having the Navy and airforce to defend it of course.

There is some interesting evidence coming out now, regarding Edward Viii and Hitler, like Edward liked Hitler and what he stood for apparently, they met several times, that could have influenced Hitler and the way he thought about Englishmen, added a romantic overtone to it, one which stopped him wanting to crush us completely. We'll never really know the truth, maybe it was something to do with the Empire, Hitler admired it and wanted one of his own. maybe he thought if we capitulated instead of being utterly defeated, he could share in that Empire without the hassle of having to invade one by one.

StevieJ

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

No - but he was from Wallasey, Cheshire!

Remember that argument you had many moons ago about whether it was in Cheshire or not, the first time I was aware of your sensible posts

ruggedtoast

Lotus-eater wrote: »

He had alot more than that, they'd started gathering barges from all over Europe and adapting them into landing craft of a sort.
Yet historians (which I am not) are divided on how serious Hitler was, he was known for the liking of English history and not only thought we would roll over eventually, but really, never took us seriously, just as you would a tiny yapping dog.
And he had a right to, we were beaten, the army was on it's knees and had virtually no equipment, most of that was left in France and was used by the German army.
As everyone knows of course, it was the RAF that stopped us being invaded and only then because of foreign pilots. But really it was Hitlers choice to hit London instead of the RAF, that saved the RAF and also Hitler just lost interest in the UK, like a toy that was annoying to play with and not worth the effort when you did.

And we were saved, not by the brilliance and bravery of our boys (of which there was alot also), but by that narrow piece of water called the English channel. That and having the Navy and airforce to defend it of course.

There is some interesting evidence coming out now, regarding Edward Viii and Hitler, like Edward liked Hitler and what he stood for apparently, they met several times, that could have influenced Hitler and the way he thought about Englishmen, added a romantic overtone to it, one which stopped him wanting to crush us completely. We'll never really know the truth, maybe it was something to do with the Empire, Hitler admired it and wanted one of his own. maybe he thought if we capitulated instead of being utterly defeated, he could share in that Empire without the hassle of having to invade one by one.

This is factually wrong in so many ways I dont know how to begin to correct you. So I wont bother.

You are right in some instances though. The Luftwaffe was roundly defeated by the RAF.

An invasion over the Channel would have been impossible as any such force would have been blown to bits by the Royal Navy without the air superiority that the Germans lost early on in the Battle of Britain.

It simply wasnt worth it early on for the comparatively small gains. Hitler already had the manufacturing output of most of Western Europe with, thanks Petain's France, hardly firing a shot.

Once the Russians had been defeated, Europe, united under Hitler and able to produce virtually limitless numbers of military units would have swallowed up the world.

marklv

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

My paternal grandfather spent quite a bit of the early 1940s pottering around the Middle East in a tank.

And some other people's grandfathers spent the early 1940s in the reserve divisions doing sweet FA. They still got medals, though.

marklv

ruggedtoast wrote: »

This is factually wrong in so many ways I dont know how to begin to correct you. So I wont bother.

You are right in some instances though. The Luftwaffe was roundly defeated by the RAF.

An invasion over the Channel would have been impossible as any such force would have been blown to bits by the Royal Navy without the air superiority that the Germans lost early on in the Battle of Britain.

It simply wasnt worth it early on for the comparatively small gains. Hitler already had the manufacturing output of most of Western Europe with, thanks Petain's France, hardly firing a shot.

Once the Russians had been defeated, Europe, united under Hitler and able to produce virtually limitless numbers of military units would have swallowed up the world.

The Luftwaffe was only defeated because Hitler decided to retaliate to a minor British air raid on Germany, which was done as a reprisal for an accidental drop of a few bombs by a German plane on a London residential area. The Blitz came as a result of this. Tit for tat. By taking the pressure off the RAF it allowed the RAF time to recover and get back to strength. If the Germans had continued the offensive against the RAF airfields they would eventually have gained the air superiority they needed - all historians agree on this. This despite the fact that German plane losses were signifcantly higher than the British ones. What is the debatable point is whether this superiority would have sufficed to have allowed a successful amphibious crossing - that is another issue altogether. By September 1940 it was getting late for the weather and tide to be favourable, and the RN still remained a threat. Churchill would happily have sacrificed most of the RN if necessary, in order to stop a German invasion.

The best German route to victory would have been a middle eastern push that could have reached India, combined with a southern push through Africa to South Africa. With these losses there is no way that Winston would have survived a vote of confidence in the Commons. Britain would have had to sue for peace.

It's also worth noting that German factories in 1940 were still operating on single daytime shifts. Women were not asked to work in factories until very late in the war, while in Britain there was a full war economy already in 1940. Hitler expected a cheap and quick victory.

marklv

StevieJ wrote: »

Just one other point on that, Russian oil fields were closer,Russia were already supplying Germany with oil under the pact and one reason (among others) for the Russian invasion was access to that oil.

This isn't just about oilfields - Germany was principally supplied by Romania for oil and natural gas. This is about forcing the British to the negotiating table - and only a strategic success in this region would have achieved this.