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What happened to getting married before having children?

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  • Fang_3
    Fang_3 Posts: 7,602 Forumite
    To say that "the world is full of men who...." is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that all men are like this.

    Uh huh. So how do you explain your very explicit terminology here:
    For a man, fathering a child is no commitment whatsoever, whatever some women manage to persuade themselves.
  • Oldernotwiser
    Oldernotwiser Posts: 37,425 Forumite
    Fang wrote: »
    Uh huh. So how do you explain your very explicit terminology here:

    Commitment to the child certainly but not to the mother, which is what many women here have been saying,
  • Fang_3
    Fang_3 Posts: 7,602 Forumite
    Commitment to the child certainly but not to the mother, which is what many women here have been saying,

    If that's the case firstly why use the words: "no commitment whatsoever" and secondly why was your first response to my comment:
    So, by your thinking, the government never needed to set up a whole department (CSA) to get money out of absent fathers? Perhaps you should have told them this years ago!
    If it was about these fathers as you suggested then, how exactly are they making a commitment to the child? Surely they wouldn't need to be chased if they were committed as you claim?

    As I said before, I don't doubt that there are men like this, but I do know that the majority are not like this. If they were, single mothers would be the largest family group and the fact is, they're not. They make up just a quarter.
  • Oldernotwiser
    Oldernotwiser Posts: 37,425 Forumite
    Fang wrote: »
    If that's the case firstly why use the words: "no commitment whatsoever" and secondly why was your first response to my comment:

    .

    A number of women have posted here that they don't need the to be married as their commitment is having a child with someone. I was pointing out that, for a man, that is no commitment at all to the woman and, for some men, it isn't even a commitment to the child.

    I think that you're trying to derail this thread for your own purposes.
  • Oldernotwiser
    Oldernotwiser Posts: 37,425 Forumite
    Mely wrote: »
    Marriage = The grinding tedium of enforced companionship.:rotfl:
    According to the lady vicar off 'The League of Gentlemen'.
    Of course i dont agree with her though...but that quote always makes me laugh:D

    I think my favourite quote about marriage is,

    "Marriage is the result of the longing for the deep, deep peace of the double bed after the hurly-burly of the chaise-longue.”
  • Almo
    Almo Posts: 631 Forumite
    To say that "the world is full of men who...." is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that all men are like this.

    No, it's not a metaphor. It's hyperbole.

    Stepping off my soapbox, I think it's sad that the thread has come to this. The world isn't full of men who see no commitment in fathering a child, regardless of to whom the commitment is (or isn't) made.
  • POPPYOSCAR
    POPPYOSCAR Posts: 14,902 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Almo wrote: »
    No, it's not a metaphor. It's hyperbole.

    Stepping off my soapbox, I think it's sad that the thread has come to this. The world isn't full of men who see no commitment in fathering a child, regardless of to whom the commitment is (or isn't) made.



    I agree with you.

    I know a married couple who divorced and they both said they would have stayed together if they had children for their sake.So I see that as a commitment to fathering a child.
  • Oldernotwiser
    Oldernotwiser Posts: 37,425 Forumite
    Almo wrote: »
    No, it's not a metaphor. It's hyperbole.

    Stepping off my soapbox, I think it's sad that the thread has come to this. The world isn't full of men who see no commitment in fathering a child, regardless of to whom the commitment is (or isn't) made.

    Exaggeration certainly but if you spent time on the Benefits Board and its subforum, you would, perhaps, have a better idea of what I'm talking about.

    Any woman who thinks that a man having a child with her indicates a commitment on his part is fooling herself - which doesn't mean that many men don't take their responsibilities ( to the child) seriously.
  • seven-day-weekend
    seven-day-weekend Posts: 36,755 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 22 July 2010 at 9:17AM
    Also many women want a child but not a man, he is merely a sperm donor/source of income.

    Before I get jumped on I am not saying that all cohabiting relationships are like this, but many are. If you are married before having a child, you have committed to each other, then if you have a child you are committed to the child. Many co-habitees are committed to no-one.
    (AKA HRH_MUngo)
    Member #10 of £2 savers club
    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology: Terry Eagleton
  • Almo
    Almo Posts: 631 Forumite
    Exaggeration certainly but if you spent time on the Benefits Board and its subforum, you would, perhaps, have a better idea of what I'm talking about.

    Any woman who thinks that a man having a child with her indicates a commitment on his part is fooling herself - which doesn't mean that many men don't take their responsibilities ( to the child) seriously.
    Also many women want a child but not a man, he is merely a sperm donor/spurce of income.

    Before I get jumped on I am not saying that all cohabiting reloationships are like this, but many are. If you are married before having a chil, you have committed to each otherm then if you have a child you are committed to the child. Many co-habitees are committed to no-one.

    You're both posters who I actually respect very much, having seen very sensible posts on multiple occasions from both of you (I read far more than I post). The reason I'm taking issue with these posts is this idea that 'many' women or 'many' men are acting in this way. Certainly some are, I don't dispute that. By the same token, many women get married purely to 'save' the relationship. Many women get married so they can access their husband's wealth. Many women marry the wrong person because they fear being alone far more than being in an unhappy marriage. Many women have children just so they won't be alone later in life (a friend voiced this very belief the other day. I nearly choked. This friend fervently believes in marriage, by the way).

    The second part of your post, seven-day-weekend, just brings us full circle. I've already explained how I've committed to my partner. As an atheist, I believe it is entirely wrong for non believers to get married in church. I have exactly the same legal ties to my OH as a married couple (in this country) so I genuinely don't understand how I am any less committed.

    You have to look at each relationship individually - I still think marriage is a great thing for those who want it. There are imperfect cohabiting relationships and imperfect marriages. It's about the people, not the label.
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