Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

fitterastra

Hi,

I was in tesco the other day and tried to use my new chip and pin credit card, the girl put it in the key pad and because i am a bit dum i put the wrong pin in durrrrrr anyway she just took it out and asked me to sign for it which i did.

My point is why have we got these great fraud cutting cards when people can just still forge your signature.

Seems like a load of rubbish to me,

James

PIN Blindness - It's worth a read!

http://www.myfinances.co.uk/borrowing/credit-cards/credit-cards-general-use/chip-and-pin-blindness-$8485932.htm

I should imagine that retailers will decide for themselves if and when they will accept payment only by PIN. Does anyone out there know if the card industry has named the day yet?

PinkPig

fitterastra wrote:

Seems like a load of rubbish to me,

At the moment most (but not all) shops will still accept signatures - this will eventually change. There are quite a few shops that already refuse to accept signatures on chip and PIN cards.

As for the time when this will happen - if I remember correctly, as of January of this year all shops have been (in theory) responsible for any fraud which occurred because the shop accepted a signature rather than a PIN. I guess that card issuers will start enforcing this more and more, and shops will decide that it's in their own interests to stop accepting signatures.

People who have a genuine reason for not being able to enter a PIN number will be given a chip and signature card, and only chip and signature cards will allow a signature in store. Since the two types look identical, and most people will have a chip and PIN card, a criminal won't usually be able to sign.

PinkPig

James wrote:

You are advised by the card people (although never told about it), to report stores like Sainsburies

I'm not sure there's any need for that - I expect the shop was just saying that, as of June, they won't accept a signature on a chip and PIN card. If you have a chip and signature card, then their equipment will automatically ask for a signature instead.

Certainly that's how it works in the shop I work in - as of last month, we're not allowed to accept signatures except on cards where it asks for a signature automatically (this includes swipe cards (not many left now), old chip cards (before chip and PIN), and new chip and signature cards).

James

Your right, it has been left up to the retailer to make the decision - accept a signature or not:

See: Dispelling The Chip & PIN Myths:
http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/reflib/dispelling_myths_cardholders.pdf

I wonder if Sainsbury will be brave enough to put a sign up to this effect, or turn away a consumer with a trolley full of groceries because they can't remember one of their PINs?

Or a consumer refusing to enter their PIN in Sainsbury because their PIN pads offer little or no physical security.

Maybe someone from Sainsburys would like to comment?

All the more reason for making sure you have a Chip & Signature card - Now!

If your signature is refused, the card people like you to tell them via this link:

http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/consumer/2005/problems.html

James

Why are cardholders not being told that they don't need to have PIN with their chipped card?

Here's the latest victim (suspect) of PIN based fraud:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml;sessionid=DNP0XJMSADR1VQFIQMFCM5WAVCBQYJVC?xml=/money/2005/06/01/cmfraud01.xml

James

Yet another victim of PIN based fraud who never divulged his PIN:

ASHLEY LEWIS, 21, has never bought anything with a credit card. But he already appears to have been a victim of fraud and now has a debt of £1,273.11.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/credit-and-loans/article.html?in_article_id=401215&in_page_id=9&ct=5

James

Possible £6.5 million card fraud:

http://software.silicon.com/security/0,39024655,39131432,00.htm

How did they get hold of the PINs?

Well done the NHTCU!

But when card details and personal information are compromised Shouldn't Card Holders be Notified. When the French Chip was successfully hacked, the French Banks replaced ALL their cards:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/foster/2005/06/27.html

Detail_Merchant

I saw some information originally posted over at TMF that I thought might be of interest.

CREDIT card providers have been warned they must not make fraud victims liable for all of their losses, even when cardholders have been grossly negligent.

reported here

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/credit-and-loans/article.html?in_article_id=401706&in_page_id=9&ct=5

This seems to be based on this issue of the Ombudsman's newsletter:

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/46/46_plastic_cards.htm

So if you let someone else use your card then your liability is uncapped, but if it is used without your permission, then even if that is due to gross negligence, then the liability is capped at £50.

Of course if the bank think that you did actually deliberately hand your card over to the person who made the transactions, then they will try to hold you fully liable. The case studies at the end of the financial ombudsman newsletter make interesting reading.

But this does seem to put paid to the worry that some people have expressed that a card issuer might effectively say "Yes, we accept that your card was taken and used by a mugger, but they knew the PIN, so you must have been grossly negligent, hence you have to pay up in full". The most they could expect you to pay, if they accept that the card was used without your permission, is £50. Of course they could try and argue that you let the person take and use your card, but then they could say that with a signature based card also, so no change there.

Interesting,

Detail Merchant

James

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4628213.stm

If stolen bank details and banking information can be used to create (counterfeit cards) and these cards used with valid PINs to withdraw cash at ATMs then the card industry and cardholders have a major problem!

We (cardholders) should be looking at ways of ensuring cards of our choice cannot be used with a PIN to withdraw cash.