Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

James

How many people will change ALL their cards to operate with the same PIN? Is this wise? Where's the advice from the banks?

From the The Sunday Express February 27, 2005.

Elderly revolt over pension PIN money.

Neil Duncan Jordan, National Pensioners Convention:
“He also questioned whether the new measures actually succeeded in cutting down crime as pensioners could end up keeping note of these numbers in their pockets, making them easy prey for muggers”

David Sinclair, Policy Manager at Help The Aged, said he had seen an older person turned away from a shop after forgetting his number. “Our biggest concern is that no one’s talking about the alternatives,” he said. “There is very limited information about how you can use other methods, such as chip and signature.”

A spokeswoman from APACS said there were no set guidelines as to what alternatives card issuers should offer to chip and PIN.

One wonders which consumer groups were consulted by the Chip & PIN people and if these groups insisted on alternatives to Chip & PIN?

There is of lack of information on chip and Signature. How does this fit in with the Banking Code article 2b? "Our key commitments to you.
Help you to understand how our financial products and services work by:
giving you information about them in plain English;
explaining their financial implications; and helping you choose the one that meets yhour needs."

James

pault123

almahadeus wrote:

I absolutely agree that the new system still isn't adequate. I can't believe (after hearing that it would make it so much harder for someone to do credit card fraud) that those 2 little semicircle things at the sides of the machine are supposed to cover the pad! Anyone can see it, especially for us short people who cant cover the pad from all directions as anyone can just look over the shoulder- I am quite angry about this because I feel more at risk now than before- I can really see the potential for people standing in queues waiting for you to input your pin and then grabbing the card and running- or worse they could follow you out of the store and mug you. Ok maybe the chance of this happening is still small but if they spent millions on this system how much would it have cost to make bigger bits of plastic for the sides of the machine!!!!

that is exactly my point. When i first seen one of the terminals I gave the assistant my old Unchipped switch card, I thought this must be one of the beta keypads the two semicircle sides were nonexistant.

All my cards have been replaced with chips in them now, and as far as i know you have no choice whether to sign or type in pin anymore

It turns out all the keypads ive seen are this unsecure !

James

At last - a mention of Chip & Signature in the press:

Confusion over Chip & PIN is worse than expected:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/11/nchip11.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/11/ixhome.html

James

Did anyone catch - The Truth Behind Chip & PIN - The London Programme, ITV London, 15 March 2005?

IMHO This programme should have been broadcast nationally as it effects every debit and/or credit card carrying consumer:

Two links worth viewing:

Chip & sPIN
http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/

Say No To Chip & PIN
http://www.saynotochipandpin.co.uk/

Anyone for Chip & Signature?

davidcampbell

didnt see it james although had heard reference to it through work. anything of note in it?

dimacc

so far i have been relatively happy with chip and pin but was very concerned when visiting Tescos recently to find that if you use their self serve checkouts you only have to swipe your card through the machine ... no pin number or signature required!!! when i queried the sense in this, the assistant looked at me as if i was stupid and said it was the same as going to the cinema !! err .....i think a thief would have a better splurge with my money in Tescos than in a cinema!!!

James

Absolutely, confirms an awful lot which has been posted on this site:

The programmes opening statement:

“My view is that it is one of the most brazen attempts ever by any countries financial sector to dump liability onto its customers.” (Prof. Ross Anderson, Cambridge Univ.)

The programme then proves that the chip on chipped cards can be bypassed, the card then cloned and the counterfiet card used with a valid PIN to withdraw cash at ATMs. Various methods of obtaining PINs are shown - minature cameras, CCTV etc etc.

A victim of PIN fraud is interviewd - harrowing tale, the City of London Police say that incidences of Shoulder Surfing will rise.

The only thing that wasn't mentioned is there is an alternative - Chip & Signature.

I should imagine an awful lot of PINs from London cardholders have been returned to sender.





James

DesG

I havn't had any luck getting Cahoot to issue me with C&S cards, but I'm still trying.

Egg on the other hand, couldn't have been more helpful, I had just received my new C&P card, so rang them up and said I would like a C&S card, and the operator said no problem, I'll get it sent out.

Mind you, only on one occasion did a shop refuse my C&P card without the pin, so I gave them a cheque.

Cheers, Des.

DorsetDave2

During the last week both my wife and I have been refused use of our chip and pin cards.

The first time it was myself at a Tesco Filling Station. I filled up with £34 worth of fuel. When I went to pay with my Citi credit card I was told their machine wanted an "alternative method of payment". I asked why and they said because it was a chip and pin card. I noticed both their chip and pin machines were marked as out of order. I was at a loss to know what to do, and it was very embarrasing in the queue, but eventually I found a Debit Card(which I didnt really want to use).

When I got home I rang Citicard as I thought it was their fault but they told me Tesco should have asked for a "manual authorisation".

Then I rang the duty manager at the Tesco store (Ferndown,Dorset). I didnt tell him what Citicard had said and asked him what should have happened. He didnt mention Manual authorisation until I told him about it.

Then, lo and behold, my wife went into Sainsburys to shop a few days later and they wouldnt accept her Citicard. She had used it by previously signing up to that date, as Sainsburys hadnt got the chip and pin machines in before. I should say that my wife is Disabled through a Stroke and can't remember numbers very well. The Stroke has also made her get rather upset easily and it was made worse as she didnt have any alternative means of payment on her. You can imagine the state she got into with all this.To cap it all the Sainsburys staff told her , her card didnt start until 1st May. This was completely wrong as in fact they had got mixed up as it started on 01/05.

As you can imagine I was rather peeved off with both Supermarkets. I told them in no uncertain terms they needed to get their act together with staff training on chip and pin. Incidentally when I spoke to Sainsburys to complain they said their machine should have told their cashier, after 30 seconds, that my wife could still have signed (until May apparently).

Galstonian

I have been away for the weekend and just got a new card on the day we were leaving (Thursday) but no pin so for the past few days have been handing over my card, getting asked for a PIN and replying 'sorry I don't have one'. Not once has my card been refused and not once has any additional security been required, sometimes the signature has not even been checked. This was all still in the UK. Any system is most likely to break at its weakest points and it is quite obvious that there are parts of the C&P system that are very weak indeed.