HTC Desire Vodafone 500mb Fair Usage Policy

Garikai

I just ordered a HTC Legend which is very similar to the Desire but slower. A lot slower.

However what Voda is playing at is absolutely shocking. I spoke to a sales assistant and she offered me a deal which left me speechless. 600 min and unlimited txts and internet. (i dont use many min so 600 is like a thousand to me). UNLIMITED means never ending i cant believe there is a hard cap on this.

So you can count me in going against VF

bakerlad1983

Couldnt you all just hammer the iplayer or somthing that will take you over for the month? Then just say its gone over 10% and cancel?

Kau

Interesting read (sorry for the long URL, tiny URL doesn't work?) http://www.bitterwallet.com/can-i-cancel-my-vodafone-contract-new-statement-on-new-data-charges-but-theyre-still-wrong/29277?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bitterwallet+%28BitterWallet%29&utm_content=Twitter

Looks like Vodafail are well out of line here. Shocking behaviour for a company, standard practice for a Mobile Operator?

bubblesmoney

@ thelibertine and anyothers that have bought vodafone or anyother network contracts based on their assurances that the 500mb (or what ever limit networks put on your account) as FUP rather than definite limits but later turn around and say they will charge if cross those FUP limits in effect making them definitive hard limits rather than FUP and making their advertisng as unlimited internet into definitive limited internet. this is misselling as there is a clear difference between FUP and definitive limit beyond which charges are applied.

please note the following extracts from relavant legislation that will be useful for breach of contract claims against vodafone or anyother network. i have higlighted some bits that i think are important.

see extracts below. others please add any excerpts from any other legislation that might be relavant in this thread.

JUST LIKE THE OTHER CAMPAIGNS BY MSE CAN MSE PLEASE TAKE UP A MISSELLING CAMPAIGN WRT 'UNLIMITED INTERNET' MISSELLING PLEASE AS ALL CONSUMERS ARE BEING AFFECTED BY SUCH BLATANT MISSELLING OF DEFINITIVELY LIMITED INTERNET CAPS BEING MISSOLD AS UNLIMITED INTERNET BY ALL NETWORKS. networks should be forced to give rebates to all customers where they have done this misselling.

see extracts below. eforum officials are vodafone employees so will be classed as sellers representatives so their misselling of the product on their eforums or blogs will be classed as misselling and customers affected will be covered by the legislation (extracts below) and make the seller liable for claims under the relavant sections of this act or any other relavant consumer act.

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=241600




Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982




(2A) For the purposes of this section and section 5 below, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.
[F4 (2B) If the transferee deals as consumer, the relevant circumstances mentioned in subsection (2A) above include any public statements on the specific characteristics of the goods made about them by the transferor, the producer or his representative, particularly in advertising or on labelling.






ADDITIONAL RIGHTS OF TRANSFEREE IN CONSUMER CASES




11M
Introductory
 
(1) This section applies if—
(a)
the transferee deals as consumer or, in Scotland, there is a consumer contract in which the transferee is a consumer, and
(b)
the goods do not conform to the contract for the transfer of goods at the time of delivery.
(2) If this section applies, the transferee has the right—
(a)
under and in accordance with section 11N below, to require the transferor to repair or replace the goods, or
(b)
under and in accordance with section 11P below—
(i) to require the transferor to reduce the amount to be paid for the transfer by the transferee by an appropriate amount, or
(ii) to rescind the contract with regard to the goods in question.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above, goods which do not conform to the contract for the transfer of goods at any time within the period of six months starting with the date on which the goods were delivered to the transferee must be taken not to have so conformed at that date.
(4) Subsection (3) above does not apply if—
(a)
it is established that the goods did so conform at that date;
(b)
its application is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.
(5) For the purposes of this section, “consumer contract” has the same meaning as in section 11F(3) above.

11N
Repair or replacement of the goods
 
(1) If section 11M above applies, the transferee may require the transferor—
(a)
to repair the goods, or
(b)
to replace the goods.
(2) If the transferee requires the transferor to repair or replace the goods, the transferor must—
(a)
repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the transferee;
(b)
bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).
(3) The transferee must not require the transferor to repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods if that remedy is—
(a)
impossible,
(b)
disproportionate in comparison to the other of those remedies, or
(c)
disproportionate in comparison to an appropriate reduction in the purchase price under paragraph (a), or rescission under paragraph (b), of section 11P(1) below.
(4) One remedy is disproportionate in comparison to the other if the one imposes costs on the transferor which, in comparison to those imposed on him by the other, are unreasonable, taking into account—
(a)
the value which the goods would have if they conformed to the contract for the transfer of goods,
(b)
the significance of the lack of conformity to the contract for the transfer of goods, and
(c)
whether the other remedy could be effected without significant inconvenience to the transferee.
(5) Any question as to what is a reasonable time or significant inconvenience is to be determined by reference to—
(a)
the nature of the goods, and
(b)
the purpose for which the goods were acquired.

11P
Reduction of purchase price or rescission of contract
 
(1) If section 11M above applies, the transferee may—
(a)
require the transferor to reduce the purchase price of the goods in question to the transferee by an appropriate amount, or
(b)
rescind the contract with regard to those goods,
if the condition in subsection (2) below is satisfied.
(2) The condition is that—
(a)
by virtue of section 11N(3) above the transferee may require neither repair nor replacement of the goods, or
(b)
the transferee has required the transferor to repair or replace the goods, but the transferor is in breach of the requirement of section 11N(2)(a) above to do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the transferee.
(3) If the transferee rescinds the contract, any reimbursement to the transferee may be reduced to take account of the use he has had of the goods since they were delivered to him.

11Q
Relation to other remedies etc.
 
(1) If the transferee requires the transferor to repair or replace the goods the transferee must not act under subsection (2) until he has given the transferor a reasonable time in which to repair or replace (as the case may be) the goods.
(2) The transferee acts under this subsection if—
(a)
in England and Wales or Northern Ireland he rejects the goods and terminates the contract for breach of condition;
(b)
in Scotland he rejects any goods delivered under the contract and treats it as repudiated; or
(c)
he requires the goods to be replaced or repaired (as the case may be).

11R
Powers of the court
 
(1) In any proceedings in which a remedy is sought by virtue of this Part the court, in addition to any other power it has, may act under this section.
(2) On the application of the transferee the court may make an order requiring specific performance or, in Scotland, specific implement by the transferor of any obligation imposed on him by virtue of section 11N above.
(3) Subsection (4) applies if—
(a)
the transferee requires the transferor to give effect to a remedy under section 11N or 11P above or has claims to rescind under section 11P, but
(b)
the court decides that another remedy under section 11N or 11P is appropriate.
(4) The court may proceed—
(a)
as if the transferee had required the transferor to give effect to the other remedy, or if the other remedy is rescission under section 11P,
(b)
as if the transferee had claimed to rescind the contract under that section.
(5) If the transferee has claimed to rescind the contract the court may order that any reimbursement to the transferee is reduced to take account of the use he has had of the goods since they were delivered to him.
(6) The court may make an order under this section unconditionally or on such terms and conditions as to damages, payment of the price and otherwise as it thinks just.

11S
Conformity with the contract
 
(1) Goods do not conform to a contract for the supply or transfer of goods if—
(a)
there is, in relation to the goods, a breach of an express term of the contract or a term implied by section 3, 4 or 5 above or, in Scotland, by section 11C, 11D or 11E above, or
(b)
installation of the goods forms part of the contract for the transfer of goods, and the goods were installed by the transferor, or under his responsibility, in breach of the term implied by section 13 below or (in Scotland) in breach of any term implied by any rule of law as to the manner in which the installation is carried out.]




…




[F45 (3) For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—
(a)
fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,
(b)
appearance and finish,
(c)
freedom from minor defects,
(d)
safety, and
(e)
durability.

Little_Maya

OK, I'm confused now (probably not the only one!) I took out a Voda contract last November, the email confirmation of the order says "unlimited internet". I haven't received any communication from VF regarding changes to the FUP going from "soft" to "hard", so where do I stand exactly?

MattJ_2

I've contacted Watch Dog too.

watchdog@bbc.co.uk

jimbo372

Little Maya,

I think your situation is as follows, although someone will correct me if I am wrong:

You were sold a mobile phone contract based on having an unlimited Internet plan with a fair usage policy (FUP).

When Vodafone inform all their customers about a change in your terms and conditions associated with you mobile contract changing it from a unlimited plan with a fair usage policy to a fixed 500MB limit, you have the option of writing to Vodafone and requesting that your contract be ended early on account of Vodafone changing the terms in such as way as disadvantages you. This is assuming that you can demonstrate that your costs would increase by at least 10% as a result of this change, based on the previous month(s) usage.

Once Vodafone changes there data plan from unlimited with FUP if you exceeded 500MB they never really enforced it. Certainly not in my case. Once this change goes through I imagine that you will be charged another £5 if your data reaches 501MB then another £5 if you reach 1001MB and so on etc.

Regards

James

Little_Maya

Thanks James

Bah so I'm stuffed then... In 6 months I never got over the 500MB, though got rather close on a few occasions! So I guess I'm stuck on VF for another 12 month then. Can't wait to leave them tbh... they lied to me about stock availability, they lost my pac so ended up having to jump through hoops to get that sorted, their customer service is appalling, their online account thing is a joke and doesn't work properly half the time, they take ages to pay up through quidco (took 5 months to validate!)... so the change to the data FUP is the last straw...

MattJ_2

Leonard: Hello, you're chatting with Leonard, one of Vodafone's online sales specialists. May I take your name please?
You: MAtt
Leonard: Hi matt, how are you doing ?
You: I'd like you to read a website for me please and them tell me if I am able to cancel my contract due to Vodafone being in breach of thier T&C
You: http://www.bitterwallet.com/can-i-cancel-my-vodafone-contract-new-statement-on-new-data-charges-but-theyre-still-wrong/29277?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bitterwallet+%28BitterWallet%29&utm_content=Twitter
Leonard: well i am so sorry i am unable to get access to the link
Leonard: as we don't have access to check any other web site deals
Leonard: are you already a pay monthly customers with us ?
You: Its not a deal, and you can access links because the person I spoke to yesterday looked at a differnet link
You: I am but I want to cancel due to VF changing thier terms and conditions
You: Because of that, I also belive I am able to keep my handset
Leonard: Well you can cancel your contract by giving 30 days notice
Leonard: but you will have to pay the early termination fee
You: Not if VF are at fault
You: 1.2. You may end this Agreement by writing to us if: © we increase your Charges in the UK which have the effect of increasing your total call and usage charges (based upon your usage in the previous month) by more than 10% and you write to us before the increase takes effect; or (d) we change this Agreement to your significant disadvantage including the change or withdrawal of Services (we will tell you if this is the case) and you write to us within one month of us telling you about the change. This does not apply where the change relates to Services which can be cancelled without termination of this Agreement.
You: Vodafone are changing my agreement and it will cause a significant disadvantage; Vodafone is restricting your future use of my handset. Without a Fair Use Policy, you can no longer use data on your handset without the possibility of being forced to pay an additional amount or having to curtail your usage. You won’t be able to use data-intensive applications that may mean occasionally using more than 500MB, like Spotify or Google Maps Navigation, or any similar apps released between June and the end of your contract, which in some cases is 23 months away. The difference between the occasional use of additional data and wholescale abuse has until now being distinct, a distinction embodied by a Fair Use Policy and repeated by Vodafone staff over and over again.
You: VF are attempting to remove a key clause from your contract, without your consent, thereby removing all the benefits that clause has previously allowed, without your consent, and replace it with mandatory charges, after breaching their own contract by not providing the agreed amount of notice.
You: My Contract with Vodafone is governed by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. The Act states that the trader should provide the service using reasonable care and skill. My argument is that the trader didn’t use reasonable care and skill as they misrepresented the contract.
Leonard: Well i will transfer your chat to the customer service team they will help you out just a second please
Please wait while I transfer the chat to the appropriate group.
You are now connected with Nilam.
Nilam: Hi, you are chatting with Nilam.
You: Hi
Nilam: Give me a moment while I go through your previous chat...
You: Ok
Nilam: I am sorry to learn that you wish to cancel your account.
Nilam: Please wait while I access the link, which you have provided.
You: Thank you. I wish to know where I stand in terms of cancelling my contract. I
Nilam: Can you please provide me your Vodafone mobile number?
You: (REMOVED)
Nilam: Thanks..
Nilam: I've gone through the link you have provided.
You: And do you agree that VF are in breach
Nilam: Yes, we are revising the charges of mobile internet from 1st of June 2010.
Nilam: Once gone above the usage of 500 MB, will be charged for the usage...
Nilam: We are not in breach as this will be informed to all our customers...
You: That isn't what was said when I took out my contract however, which is governed by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 - you didn't use reasonable care and skill and you misrepresented the contract - as IF I had known charges would be added, I would never have renewed in the first place
You: And yes you are as, Vodafone are introducing mandatory data charges, so they’ve chosen to interprete their own terms to mean they can give you 14 days notice. However they’ve already admitted they’re changing the terms of your core agreement in order to introduce these charges; “changes to… terms to this agreement” require 30 days’ notice according to 7b, and therefore by not telling customers (the only announcement has been in an online forum so far, for changes due on 1 June) Vodafone are in breach of contract.
You: 1st June is LESS than 30 days
You: And like I say, if I had known you were going to up charges, I'd have never taken out a new contract
You: Clause 11d, however, is absolutely relevant – Vodafone are changing your agreement and it will cause a significant disadvantage; Vodafone is restricting your future use of your handset. Without a Fair Use Policy, you can no longer use data on your handset without the possibility of being forced to pay an additional amount or having to curtail your usage. You won’t be able to use data-intensive applications that may mean occasionally using more than 500MB, like Spotify or Google Maps Navigation, or any similar apps released between June and the end of your contract, which in some cases is 23 months away. The difference between the occasional use of additional data and wholescale abuse has until now being distinct, a distinction embodied by a Fair Use Policy and repeated by Vodafone staff over and over again.
You: So you sold me the contract, and are now going to add extra charge. I haven't been given 30 days that you are changing your T&C's.
Nilam: Vodafone have all reserved rights to make any changes.
You: With 30 days notice
Nilam: As per the terms we can advise the customer before 14 days...
You: T&C. 7b: b We can make changes to or withdraw services at any time and we can make changes to or introduce new terms to this agreement at any time. We will give you at least 30 days’ notice of these changes if we do and you may have a right to end this agreement under clause 11.
You: WE WILL GIVE YOU AT LEAST 30 DAYS NOTICE OF THESE CHANGES
You: It's in your own T&C
You: and going back to the Supply of Goods and Services act and VF miss-selling the contract, mss-selling. If you are going to sell something called "unlimited" then it doesn't matter whether you have got in the fine print that unlimited doesn't mean unlimited. In court the decision is based on whether a reasonable person would think it unlimited or not, not whether Vodafone thinks it is. Small claims court is only £30/40 so unless VF can come up with something fast then I, along with others, will be going down that route. Consumer Direct and WatchDog are looking into this for me also.
You: I have been with VF several years now and that is why I renewed (you matched a deal with a rival operator) but this is the final straw
Nilam: Please wait while I check this with one of my colleagues from customer relations team.
You: quite simple really 500mb equates to just 16mb a day, if you use more than 16mb a day then this will clearly impact the use of your phone and it will render it unusable to you, unless you want to go over the limit, quite clearly smartphones use alot of date compared to other phones, and this will clearly put u at a disadvantage as stated below, Vodafone know this they just didn't expect it would cause so much outrage. 11.2. You may end this Agreement by writing to us if: (d) we change this Agreement to your significant disadvantage including the change or withdrawal of Services (we will tell you if this is the case) and you write to us within one month of us telling you about the change.
Nilam: Mr. Jones, I'll transfer your chat to Melissa one of my colleagues from customer relations, is that okay with you?
You: Ok
Nilam: Please wait while I transfer your chat...


Please wait while I transfer the chat to Melissa.
You are now connected with Melissa.
You: Hi
Melissa: Good Morning Mr Jones. You've been transferred to me, my name is Melissa and I work in the Customer Relations team. I'm just going to take a minute to read through your previous conversation.
You: Thank you
Melissa: Ok, I have read through your previous conversation and understand that you wish to cancel your agreement because of the pending changes to our data charging, is this correct?
You: I am asking where I stand on this, and as VF are in breach, I am of the understanding that I may cancel without charge and keep my handset
Melissa: Ok, I have checked this with a manager in this department and can inform you that Vodafone have not breached any of the terms and conditions of your agreement by introducing these charges.
You: Yes you have, you are changing the T&C in my contract without 30 days notice
You: Vodafone are introducing mandatory data charges, so they’ve chosen to interprete their own terms to mean they can give you 14 days notice. However they’ve already admitted they’re changing the terms of your core agreement in order to introduce these charges; “changes to… terms to this agreement” require 30 days’ notice according to 7b, and therefore by not telling customers (the only announcement has been in an online forum so far, for changes due on 1 June) Vodafone are in breach of contract. 1st June is LESS than 30 days
You: and going back to the Supply of Goods and Services act and VF miss-selling the contract, mss-selling. If you are going to sell something called "unlimited" then it doesn't matter whether you have got in the fine print that unlimited doesn't mean unlimited. In court the decision is based on whether a reasonable person would think it unlimited or not, not whether Vodafone thinks it is. Small claims court is only £30/40 so unless VF can come up with something fast then I, along with others, will be going down that route.
Melissa: The fair usage policy for the Vodafone Mobile Internet (VMI) bundle is not in the terms and conditions of your agreement and we have given the required amount of notice for the change to take effect (14 days), this does not come into effect until the 1st June 2010.
Melissa: The way the VMI bundle works is that customer's using over the 500MB allowance should always have been charged but up until now this has not been enforced
You: So you basically mis sold my contract to me and are now going to make me pay more?
You: So to be clear what’s happening here; Vodafone are attempting to remove a key clause from your contract, without your consent, thereby removing all the benefits that clause has previously allowed, without your consent, and replace it with mandatory charges, after breaching their own contract by not providing the agreed amount of notice. The statements they have released, and those made on Twitter yesterday, are incorrect by the letter of their own terms.
You: VF have already admitted they’re changing the terms of your core agreement in order to introduce these charges; “changes to… terms to this agreement” require 30 days’ notice according to 7b, and therefore by not telling customers (the only announcement has been in an online forum so far, for changes due on 1 June) Vodafone are in breach of contract.
You: Clause 7b: b We can make changes to or withdraw services at any time and we can make changes to or introduce new terms to this agreement at any time. We will give you at least 30 days’ notice of these changes if we do and you may have a right to end this agreement under clause 11.
You: You are making changes and withdrawing the benefits of "UNLIMITED" internet. I have not had 30 days notice of that
You: Clause 11: 11.2. You may end this Agreement by writing to us if: (c ) we increase your Charges in the UK which have the effect of increasing your total call and usage charges (based upon your usage in the previous month) by more than 10% and you write to us before the increase takes effect; or (d) we change this Agreement to your significant disadvantage including the change or withdrawal of Services (we will tell you if this is the case) and you write to us within one month of us telling you about the change. This does not apply where the change relates to Services which can be cancelled without termination of this Agreement.
You: You have changed it to a significant disadvantage to myself
Melissa: Ok I can understand your concerns about this and can understand why you're frustrated.
Melissa: I am just checking this with a team manager now
You: But what are you going to do about it? There are 1000s unhappy customers out there. I would never have renewed if I knew you are going to do this to me. Facebook groups, loads of people have contacted Consumer Direct, Watch Dog, etc
Melissa: I have looked at your last two months usage and can see that you have not used anywhere near the 500MB allowance
Melissa: so in your position you would not be getting any extra charges
You: I have only mad mt HTC Desire for less than a month, I am unable to use the phone to it's full potential due to your new data charges , therefore I am at a significant disadvantage as I now have a phone which I cannot fully use
ou: Had I gone with T-Mobile's 3GB Data Allowance (at the same price as VF!) then I would be able to use apps such as Google Navigation, use YouTube, Spotify, and all the other nice apps which use data! 500mb is 16mb a day, that is nothing on a device such as the Desire
Melissa: Ok, I can understand what you're saying regarding this, however so far this month you have still only used a total of 87.71 Megabytes
Melissa: so you are still well within your limit of 500MB, it may also be helpful to know that only 1% of our customers exceed the 500MB limit so it is still a very competitive package
You: because I dont want to use any apps which are heavy on data - or have to worry about going over as I refuse to pay extra for what I was told was "UNLIMITED" internet, and as I said, "Unlimited", regardless of the T&C, means Unlimited - in court (based on the average persons interpretation)
You: If I had gone with T-Mobile I wouldnt have to worry about going over and could use my handset to its full potential - I have used 250MB WiFi this month so far, which drains the battery
You: Regardless, I am unable to use my phone to its potential, I was missold a contract, VF ARE in breach of their own T&C and unless VF can come up with a reasonable agreement then I WILL be going through small claims court. As I have already said, myself along with many many others have already seeked advice from Consumer Direct and have contacted WatchDog.
Melissa: As I have explained the VMI bundle is not part of your airtime terms and conditions and is a separate package that customers can choose to have on their contract. From the 1st June any usage over the 500MB will be chargeable and any customers that are nearing the limit of their bundle will receive a text message to let them know. It is then the customer's choice whether to continue using the service at the chargeable rate. I have checked this with a manager in the department and our position on this will not change. If you wish to cancel your agreement, you will be charged an early cancellation fee for the remainder of your contract as noted in the terms and conditions.
You: And how much is that early fee may I Ask
Melissa: Today your early cancellation fee stands at £REMOVED - this is based on how many days are remaining on your contract so will decrease daily.
You: I am sure that paying £30 through small claims court is a much cheaper option as any "reasonable person" would take "UNLIMITED" as "UNLIMITED" - regardless of what VF say, so guaranteed win there
Melissa: As I have explained this is Vodafone's current position, it is completely your choice if you wish to pursue this elsewhere
You: But VF HAVE broken T&C so I do have a case and I WILL get to keep the phone
You: Are you happy for me to use this chat in correspondence with Watch Dog and Consumer Direct and through Small Claims as proof that VF are saying they have NOT changed their T&C and that the customers are in the wrong?
Melissa: I'm sorry you feel I have not been able to resolve this issue for you during our chat today, you must of course take whatever action you feel is necessary.
You: VF will lose many customers who have been very loyal, I feel cheated that VF are doing this after I chose to renew with you.
You: Family members who work for OFCOM also have contracts with VF and are going to take this case on
Melissa: I am sorry you feel this way, as I said you are free to take whatever action you feel is necessary regarding this, as I have explained our position.
You: And you are happy for me to say that YOU have told me that VF are not in breach?
You: thank you for doing absolutely nothing to try stop a loyal customer from leaving
You: I think that you are digging a big hole for VF. You are obviously looking at the Mobile Internet part as being a seperate part of the tariff, which of course, we all know it isn't. The "VMI" (probably for al the tariffs that we're on) is, and always has been an inclusive element - we never chose to have a tariff that was £25 for calls and SMS PLUS £5 for internet....
Melissa: As I have explained our position on this, I'm sorry that I am unable to help any further with this today. Thanks for your time and your comments.
You: So no comment on the above?
Melissa: I have already explained our position and this is also outlined in our terms and conditions, this is our current position
The chat session has been closed by your Vodafone Representative.

khy86

looks like they are going to make it extremely difficult for people to cancel. May just start using my data even more. Atleast Orange admitted to their mistake and allowed people to cancel when they increased their prices.

Have lost alot of faith in VF following this