Weezl and friends Phase 2 -giving it a whirl for Shirl! Testing meal plan for a month

weezl74

mr_arty wrote: »

haha sorry dont think I was too clear on my description maybe an example will help what I mean then you can tell me what you think should be different.

Imagine a very simplified family who only eat say red pepper omelette, egg and chips and ...something made of potato and pepper. Ie they only have 3 different ingredients and 3 recipes. What I imagine the program to do is to optimise their weeks meals so that to ensure they get their nutrients yet minimise their costs as well while also keeping the diet varied.

Does this make it more clear basically it should do what you guys did with spread sheets basically to stop you having to do all that tweeking on the plan as that must of taken quite some time

erm... bear with me, I'm a bit slow today!

I think I'm nearly there! It's the how the recipes are created part I'm worried about I think...

I'm often left with say:

400g chick peas, a litre of veg oil, 500g sugar, some raisins and half a swede.

A human can quickly look at the list and see houmous, raisin biscuits and swede fritters.

My concern is how horrendously complex a series of formulae you'd have to enter so the computer didn't suggest scones made out of swede, and a raisin and chick pea soup (bleurgh!)

or is it drawing from a stock of pre programmed recipe ideas?

ermmm sorry I'm not explaining myself very well am I? :rotfl:

Basically my question is : I get how the database defines the shopping list, and I do see that as a fully automatable task.

It's how it spits out a meaningful recipe that would a) work, and b) taste nice, that I'm struggling with...

mr_arty

Ahh ok I understand what you dont get. - Warning a bit of an essay

Contained in the database will be all of your recipes on your website for example butternut squash risotto, for this entry will be contained all of its ingredients and their quantities so rice - 200g buternut squash 100g etc as well as its calories and other info. when the user selects the recipes they want for the month (however we eventually decide to do this but its not important at the moment) these will then be plugged into a program which will work out how many of each recipe to have in a month to ensure that people get enough nutrition but also minimise cost.

The type of maths which is designed to solve problems like this is called linear programming - wikipedia has a good page on it. Basically linear programming looks to find the optimal values for a set of parameters given a set of constraints on those parameters. In our case the parameters will be how many times a month to eat each meal, and the constraints will be to minimise cost and waste while ensuring that calorie and nutritional intake is above a threshold value. Hope this makes sense

So the program wont be creating recipes it will be using your recipes and finding the most cost effective way of having them

weezl74

thank you mr arty, I'm much more with you now.:)

I like what you're saying and it's a bit like the software caled nutmeg, which I have a free download of for 30 days. This one uses linear prog too (I think, but you are the whizz!), and you can programme in your own recipes or use some from it's own large database.

The worries I have (sorry!) are that it'd be a hell of a lot of work for you to replicate something I could buy for $35 which is a ridiculous return on your investment of time!

And it would still not deliver the thing that is so very time taking and painstaking which is not just to deliver the set of recipes for the month, the shopping list and the full nutritional match, it's to do this with not a scrap of leftovers (ie they spend £100 and there's not a crumb left) because that's where the human artistry comes in? Unless I have misunderstood something?

This is mainly why I thought we were just offering a shopping list, because it was the 'nil wastage' parameter I was thinking of.

Because even if the computer could somehow do that, as soon as asda start putting the raisins in a 400g bag instead of a 500g bag, (as is very common) then we have a problem, Houston!

I really hope this doesn't sound negative about your idea or willingness.

My main motivation in saying it, is that I would be gutted to see you spend your valuable time on something which I could buy off the peg, when our bespoke version may not offer the additional whistles/bells I'd have been hoping for.

mr_arty

hmmm ive had a look at that site but it seems like they just offer a program that will display the nutritional info of your meals as well as create your shopping list etc and they have that cleaver thing that offers replacements too. Although it doesnt create your menus which is more like what im thinking of so its quite a bit different.

It does seem a little bit like we are thinking differently on somethings but im sure at some level we are thinking the same thing.

I think what I am thinking is something that we say to it here is our family and we only like these 5 vegetables and foods and then the computer says heres your months menu and a shopping list

I see what you mean with wastage and that was a thing that I was planing to make a constraint on as its a pretty big one for this project.
Although I think that when we minimise cost wastage is also lowered too.

weezl74

mr_arty wrote: »

hmmm ive had a look at that site but it seems like they just offer a program that will display the nutritional info of your meals as well as create your shopping list etc and they have that cleaver thing that offers replacements too. Although it doesnt create your menus which is more like what im thinking of so its quite a bit different.

It does seem a little bit like we are thinking differently on somethings but im sure at some level we are thinking the same thing.

I think what I am thinking is something that we say to it here is our family and we only like these 5 vegetables and foods and then the computer says heres your months menu and a shopping list

I see what you mean with wastage and that was a thing that I was planing to make a constraint on as its a pretty big one for this project.
Although I think that when we minimise cost wastage is also lowered too.

Thank you Mr arty

I think there are some definite perils to 2 people who've never met in real life having a conversation about a technical spec without much idea of each other's backgrounds etc, so I think we're doing remarkably well considering!

It really helped when you said the 'nil waste' thing would have to give, because I feel more confident knowing that I've correctly articulated the intricacies of the process I've been following!

If you feel there's something better than 'nutmeg' we can offer to shirley, then I am genuinely all ears!

Do you feel posting on here is the easiest way to debate it?

Also, sorry about this because I think I've said something unrealistic, about how to house it online. I glibly said if it runs locally we can create an online version! Which I now discover from my dad isn't true

So i've asked him to think through a full technical spec to cover that part of it, so that I don't waste your time in a wrong direction.

mr_arty

no problems there most defiantly are lol

I think nutmeg is just a snazzy piece of database software - dont get me wrong though its an extremely good one. But the idea that I got was that you essentially wanted something to be able to do the stuff you guys all did with the spread sheets when you created the planner as I gather that was a lot of work to actually calculate and get everything in there. So if you could ask a computer to do that it would make life a lot easier also would do it a lot more rigorously.

This afternoon ive been working on a scaled down simplified version to get to grips with it, its actually the example I said earlier with the 3 meals, its nearly done now so hopefully ill be able to run it in a while and see if it works then I can report back and maybe give you a good solid example of what I think we should do

weezl74

mr_arty wrote: »

no problems there most defiantly are lol

I think nutmeg is just a snazzy piece of database software - dont get me wrong though its an extremely good one. But the idea that I got was that you essentially wanted something to be able to do the stuff you guys all did with the spread sheets when you created the planner as I gather that was a lot of work to actually calculate and get everything in there. So if you could ask a computer to do that it would make life a lot easier also would do it a lot more rigorously.

This afternoon ive been working on a scaled down simplified version to get to grips with it, its actually the example I said earlier with the 3 meals, its nearly done now so hopefully ill be able to run it in a while and see if it works then I can report back and maybe give you a good solid example of what I think we should do

fascinating stuff! I look forward to your findings, and do very much hope I'm not putting you to lots of work But as you rightly say, even if we couldn't host your tool online, then we could use it to more quickly create things for shirl, and erm... the other one!

Now, invent a piece of linear prog to help your OH get her head round my fiddly bread recipe!

Allegra

weezl74 wrote: »

hello allegra

I see you!

Hope your 'real life' things aren't too troublesome.

When does work calm down for the summer?

That was definitely a case of "now you see me, now you don't" Nothing troublesome, thanks, just time consuming.

Work has started winding down already, now the exams are over - I should (fingers crossed !) have time on my hands (and on the 'puter) from next week. Anything you're needing me to do prior to that ? I doubt I'd manage Kitty's batch advice and weekly shopping breakdown (and whatever else I'd said I'd do) this week, but something shortish I might well be able to wedge in

taka

weezl74 wrote: »

taka/anyone with a fairly good set of digi scales,

please please can I have the weight of a teaspoon of marmite/yeast extract?

Sounds like an odd thing to need urgently eh?!

Sorry I'm stuck at work at the moment and won't get home till ~9pm and don't have any yeast extract at the mo anyway. (Note to self buy some tomorrow :rotfl:)

aless02 wrote: »

weezl - I got 8g for a teaspoon.

Also, the carrot cake with oil reduced down to 1/3 (makes a bit of a flatter cake, but still nice) is 1.5 WW Points per slice . (less than Tesco Light Choices carrot cake slices!! :T :T)

Yaaaay! Someone else has measured it! :T

Ohhh lower fat Carrot cake sounds good! :drool: I'm trying to loose my (plentiful ) extra lbs at the moment. Was it just less oil that you used or did you tweek other stuff too? The current recipe contains too much oil in a slice to fit in with the rest of my food and the guidelines I was given by a dietitian.

artybear

weezl74 wrote: »

Now, invent a piece of linear prog to help your OH get her head round my fiddly bread recipe!

Oi women!!!!

Now why would I need to get my head around it when mr arty will make it??:D