Flexible new deal stages and signing off to reclaim

donnajunkie

laser wrote: »

if what I'm told is correct I will be entering FND stage 2 at the end of May which will be 17 months unmeployed.

are you in manchester or east anglia as they are the only areas that have phase 2 at the moment. have you been doing a part time fnd course with an outside provider for 12 months upto may? as you are expecting to get refered onto a course at around 17 months unemployed it maybe the case that you are in an area that still has the old new deal because people usually get refered onto that at around 18 months.
on the asssumption you are over 25 here is how it usually works.

old new deal.
left alone until a few months before or even after the 18 month mark. you then see an advisor at the job centre for a short while who then refers you to an outside provider. you will then do 4 days a week work placement and 1 day in a centre. this course will last either 13 weeks or 26 weeks.

flexible new deal.
you are pretty much left alone for 6 months. you then see an advisor once a month at the job centre. when you get to the 12 months mark you get refered to an outside provider. you see them once a fortnight and continue to sign on. you also do any short courses or sessions they think you need like jobsearch, application forms etc. during the 12 months you spend with them you also do a minimum of 4 weeks work placement.

if you are in an area that has fnd phase 2(currently manchester and east anglia) you will then go onto work fare after finishing the 12 months with the outside provider. depending what the people who run it are like and what the people who are on it with you are like this could turn out to be more enjoyable and less stressful than phase 1. still a waste of time though as far as getting you a job goes.

ps if you are under 25 things work differently. the main difference i think is just that you get refered onto things sooner.

shelly

donnajunkie wrote: »

if you are in an area that has fnd phase 2(currently manchester and east anglia) you will then go onto work fare after finishing the 12 months with the outside provider. depending what the people who run it are like and what the people who are on it with you are like this could turn out to be more enjoyable and less stressful than phase 1. still a waste of time though as far as getting you a job goes.

I am in east anglia and I was sent to A4E at Peterborough. The only thing I was told differently by them at A4E compared to what you have written is that if I still wasn't in work after 12 months I would just go back to my normal signing once a fortnight. No more courses or work placements etc.

Not that it matters to me anymore. I had such a bad time at my first appointment I have signed off completely.

laser

donnajunkie wrote: »

are you in manchester or east anglia as they are the only areas that have phase 2 at the moment. have you been doing a part time fnd course with an outside provider for 12 months upto may? as you are expecting to get refered onto a course at around 17 months unemployed it maybe the case that you are in an area that still has the old new deal because people usually get refered onto that at around 18 months.
on the asssumption you are over 25 here is how it usually works.

old new deal.
left alone until a few months before or even after the 18 month mark. you then see an advisor at the job centre for a short while who then refers you to an outside provider. you will then do 4 days a week work placement and 1 day in a centre. this course will last either 13 weeks or 26 weeks.

flexible new deal.
you are pretty much left alone for 6 months. you then see an advisor once a month at the job centre. when you get to the 12 months mark you get refered to an outside provider. you see them once a fortnight and continue to sign on. you also do any short courses or sessions they think you need like jobsearch, application forms etc. during the 12 months you spend with them you also do a minimum of 4 weeks work placement.

if you are in an area that has fnd phase 2(currently manchester and east anglia) you will then go onto work fare after finishing the 12 months with the outside provider. depending what the people who run it are like and what the people who are on it with you are like this could turn out to be more enjoyable and less stressful than phase 1. still a waste of time though as far as getting you a job goes.

ps if you are under 25 things work differently. the main difference i think is just that you get refered onto things sooner.

Hi Donnajunkie,
Based on what you have said I am on FND. I was referred to an outside provider January/Feb this year. The prime contractor in my area is SERCO. SERCO subcontract the scheme out to other providers and I have been told that at the end of May I will be referred to another subcontractor. This was described to me as stage 2 but from your comments it actually appears to be a sub stage of FND stage 1. I was told that this involves a "mandatory" period of work to earn the benefits that I DON'T get! I was also told that although the scheme was called "Flexible" New Deal it was in no way flexible and that it was quite possible that I would have to miss my Sister’s wedding which is at the end of May.

The guy that told me this seem to think that it was all a bit funny but I can assure you I wiped the smile off his face by the time I left, having pointed out that I don't get any benefits so would be forced to work for nothing whilst at the same time quite possibly putting my MPPI at risk.

He then tried to say that I should work for my NI contributions which I am told amount to approx. £6/week i.e. approx 1 hour work at minimum wage. My reply to this was that I was happy to do approx. 1 hour’s work/week to earn my NI contributions but was not happy to be forced to any more than 16 hours/week if it meant my MPPI would be put at risk.
It then occurred to me that what he was proposing might actually be illegal, I think the penny was beginning to drop by this time and when I put this to him his cocky smile well and truly disappeared.

Regards,
laser

codwidow

I simply cant get over the fact that he told you should "work for your NI contributions" are these not government representatives, they should never be allowed to speak to customers like that, its shocking. Benefits are not earnt and I cant understand this mentality that some folk have that lead them to make such comments since when was £64.30 a wage, and you or I arent even getting that! Thankfully we have already made our own provisions for our homes or we would be being repossessed.

Regarding your sisters wedding, I believe jobseekers are "allowed" two weeks holiday per year so all you would need to do is complete a form and put the allotted time as holiday from jobseeking which is ridiculous seeing as you dont get any benefits.

If they just allowed people who were claiming NI to sign by post they would save themselves a lot of money instead of paying for these schemes. I still cant believe they are getting people to work literally for nothing for 16 hours a week this seriously needs to be taken up by an MP

laser

A quick update... tried to speak to somebody at JCP and the external supplier about the FND but without success. JCP keep referring me back to the external supplier and the external supplier refer me back to JCP. JCP say that I am now under the responsisbility of the external supplier and the supplier basically play dumb and say they're only doing what's asked of them by JCP.

The guy at JCP couldn't get his head around the fact that I don't get any benefits, he kept stating that I MUST be getting mortgage interest or something. When I eventually convinced him that I wasn't and again questioned the legality of being forced to work for nothing he passed the buck to the extenal supplier.

They could not shed any light on how this might affect my MPPI, and what's really frightening is that I would not qualify for Mortagage interest payments as to qualify for this I would have to be getting benefits. This made a nonsense of the guy's earlier comment regarding Mortgage interest paymenets as to receive these I would clearly be getting some other benefit such as income based JSA. It makes you wonder what goes on in these people's heads!

I don't think I can even get the interest deferred as my mortgage is not with one of the companies that have signed-up for the scheme.

It seems the more you provide for yourself the more determined these people are to put you under.

The more you have paid-in the less you get!
The more tax you partner pays the less you get!
The more you have provided for yourself the less you get!

It's almost like they want to knock you off your perch or something.

I heard something on the television this morning regarding the election and unemployment. I didn't hear or see it all but there was a woman talking about skill sets and skill shortages. I simply don't buy that crap any more, there aren't any skills shortages in this country. All I hear from the job center is that I should be prepared to kick my skills into touch and accept a lower skilled job on some derisory salary. It appears it's not so much about training for me more like un-training (if there is such a word) or de-skilling. That probably sounds arrogant but I can't help feeling like that when I hear politicians etc banging on about skill shortages.

I believe there's an abundance of latent skills in our workforce possessed by people performing jobs that are way below their capabilities. On top of this we have record numbers of University Graduates!!!

donnajunkie

shelly wrote: »

I am in east anglia and I was sent to A4E at Peterborough. The only thing I was told differently by them at A4E compared to what you have written is that if I still wasn't in work after 12 months I would just go back to my normal signing once a fortnight. No more courses or work placements etc.

Not that it matters to me anymore. I had such a bad time at my first appointment I have signed off completely.

it sounds like phase 2 hasnt started yet were you are then. it maybe only a certain place in east anglia that has phase 2, east anglia is a big area. i have my second appointment tomorrow and i am dreading it. i am looking forward to having been on it for a few months. that way i will be established and know exactly were i am at. at the the moment i am in constant fear of getting my money stopped.

donnajunkie

laser wrote: »

Hi Donnajunkie,
Based on what you have said I am on FND. I was referred to an outside provider January/Feb this year. The prime contractor in my area is SERCO. SERCO subcontract the scheme out to other providers and I have been told that at the end of May I will be referred to another subcontractor. This was described to me as stage 2 but from your comments it actually appears to be a sub stage of FND stage 1. I was told that this involves a "mandatory" period of work to earn the benefits that I DON'T get! I was also told that although the scheme was called "Flexible" New Deal it was in no way flexible and that it was quite possible that I would have to miss my Sister’s wedding which is at the end of May.

The guy that told me this seem to think that it was all a bit funny but I can assure you I wiped the smile off his face by the time I left, having pointed out that I don't get any benefits so would be forced to work for nothing whilst at the same time quite possibly putting my MPPI at risk.

He then tried to say that I should work for my NI contributions which I am told amount to approx. £6/week i.e. approx 1 hour work at minimum wage. My reply to this was that I was happy to do approx. 1 hour’s work/week to earn my NI contributions but was not happy to be forced to any more than 16 hours/week if it meant my MPPI would be put at risk.
It then occurred to me that what he was proposing might actually be illegal, I think the penny was beginning to drop by this time and when I put this to him his cocky smile well and truly disappeared.

Regards,
laser

he sounds like a total so'n'so. he shouldnt be describing work placements as something that exists for people to earn their benefits. they are meant to work in a similar way that work trials do. they are supposed to be with a company that has a job available and the 4 weeks is meant to enable you to prove yourself. of course people are working for their benefits if they get benefits that is.
if the wedding in may is on a day when you are due on work placement then you may well have to miss it. the rule regarding work placements is that you are not allowed any days off and if you do take a day off the placement is reset to the start of the 4 weeks. you ar eallowed a cetain number of holidays while on fnd. you could try and say i want to use a days holiday for the day of the wedding. holidays are mentioned in a4e's fnd booklet. here is a scan of the relevant pages from my booklet.



as you cant help when the wedding was scheduled they should accomodate it and not arrange a work placement to start until after then. if you dont have the a4e booklet then print out the scan and show them it. if they still wont budge i would seek advice from the job centre or the citizens advice bureau. ultimately if you dont manage to make them see sense and they send you on a placement that clashes with the wedding you could just take the day off. it would just mean your 4 weeks restart from day one. the question is regarding this how risky is it? i just wonder how likely would it be that they sanction you for having a day off. so you must pursue the right to take a days holiday as far as possible.
just to be clear while you dont have the right to take time off during a work placement you are allowed time off during the course. so if you have a holiday or wedding they should work the placement around that by not starting you on it until afterwards or failing that start you on it early enough so that you would finish it in time.

coupes

shelly wrote: »

Not that it matters to me anymore. I had such a bad time at my first appointment I have signed off completely.

Could you elaborate on this please? Also, if you have signed off did they tell you how long you will be sanctioned for etc?

donnajunkie

coupes wrote: »

Could you elaborate on this please? Also, if you have signed off did they tell you how long you will be sanctioned for etc?

i dont think they can be sanctioned if they signed off. the question is how long do they have to be signed off to avoid being refered straight back. there is some confusion regarding this. some say 13 weeks and some say 26 weeks.

coupes

My friend found this slide from the DWP website which shows the JSA route:




From the diagram above it seems there maybe a Stage 5 soon which forces jobseekers to work for their benefit for up to 6 months. At the moment if you leave FND or once you have completed FND you maybe fast tracked to Stage 3. This means you could sign on for a further 6 months and would probably be put back on FND. Stuck with the provider again for another year.

Heres another link which says there maybe pilots running from October for the WFYB scheme: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/work-for-your-benefit/

By the way, whenever people sign on at the jobcentre are they processing the payment for the coming fortnight or are they being paid in arrears for the previous fortnight? Just to make sure.