Rail Penalty Fare Problem!

NXEC2010

Unfortunately you need a ticket when you travel.

Any of the following could have happened.

1) You dropped your ticket and somebody else used it to travel.
2) You dropped your ticket - someone else picked it up and obtained a refund
3) You tailgated someone through the ticket barrier without having any ticket (you found a receipt that someone had disgarded)
4) You purchased a ticket, obtained a receipt, then handed it back for a refund - yes you still get to keep the receipt.
5) You purchased one ticket - and two people travelled. You show the receipt and the other person shows the ticket.
6) You buy a ticket and don't get it stamped - claiming you've lost it. You show a receipt instead and claim a refund on the ticket when you get to your destination saying it wasn't used.

OK - there are genuine people but, believe me, all of the above have been tried at some point in the past - I have see them all as a ticket examiner. The ticket you get issued is worth the money you have paid and is your only entitlement of a journey.
If you withdrew £10 from a cash point and lost it - would the bank refund it if you could show them your withdrawal receipt ?

chrisharry_2

Please help - my daughter purchased a 16-25 railcard and a return ticket from wigan to london . On 16th July she was stopped on the train and asked to show her ticket - she had her return ticket and only one half of the railcard - she explained to the guard that she only had one half of the railcard not the two which she should have had. he then gave her a penalty notice which I appealed against. We found the other half of the railcard and scanned both parts with the return ticket and sent in a letter of appeal. I have just heard back from them and told we have to pay £200 plus £15.00 plus £20 administration fee. How can this happen when we have produced all of the correct documents - also one half of a railcard cannot be purchased without the other so it was obvious that she had purchased tickets in good faith. Please help as we cant afford to pay this fine and to be honest dont see why we should

jaredashe

I got stung once too, I was delayed by our friends London underground as they decided to close the Northern Line entrance for half an hour meaning I had to run to make my connection at Watford, forgoing buying an extension as I knew they had inspectors on those trains who could sell me the ticket then. The inspector on the train came round but didn't have his machine with him and said he couldn't eb bothered to go to the end of the train to get it so said I could jsut buy it at Watford - surprise, the guy at Watford was a moody swine and gave me a penalty fare despite me explaining.

I appealed, went to the IPFS and also contaced London TravelWatch - they all agreed that as I hadn't bought the ticket before I was liable. They promised to caution the staff who told me I could buy the ticket at watford but I doubt this happened.

The bottom line - if you don't have a ticket with you, you have to pay. It's hard to think of any extenuating circumstances. It's harsh but I suppose it's either that or have a more lax system which people would take advantage of.

chrisharry_2

yes but my daughter had a genuine return fare ticket which she showed to the guard the only problem was that she only produced half of the 16-25 railcard - but you can't purchase only one half of a railcard and the guard should have known that

Knoxvillelives

I have been stung twice by unpaid fare notices in situations where I felt extremely hard done by, I won't go into details as it doesn't seem to make a difference, suffice to say that I always pay for train tickets- always.
The bottom line is that most ticket inspectors, when it comes to these caes, are cynical, uncompassionate and irritable. It doesn't matter if any of you are on here giving advice because there's none to be given. It seems to me that if you get an unpaid fare notice, it has to be paid. It's ridiculous, it's depressing and it's a sad indicator of the trustless society we live in. You ticket inspectors work for a broken system and, yes, it's your job...but do you not sometimes feel bad when youre writing out those god awful notices to someone you KNOW is genuine.
I hate travelling on trains now, I find myself constantly on edge- it's a terrible business set up. I don't know of any other business that operates in such a cold and impersonal way. Except maybe insurance

flyingchunk

These guys are idiots!

I bought a ticket and left it on the train (stupid, but i was tired!).

The inspector was lovely and said just appeal and send the proof it will all be fine.

Well they rejected the appeal (no reason given), obviously a credit card statement with the train fare highlighted wasn't good enough!

After sending another letter they are threatening court action.

Well they can get bent!

I've now complained to the operator.

To top it all they have no phone number or email address. You have to write! This is clearly to make things as difficult as possible, and to make you pay.

Well they can still get bent!

I'll let you all know how it goes, but these guys are crooks. Plain and simple. I can't believe a train operator would employ them.

Nile

Hi, Martin’s asked me to post this in these circumstances: I’ve asked Board Guides to move threads if they’ll receive a better response elsewhere(please see this rule) so this post/thread has been moved to another board, where it should get more replies. If you have any questions about this policy please email [EMAIL="abuse@moneysavingexpert.com"]abuse@moneysavingexpert.com[/EMAIL].

Enterprise_1701C

Unfortunately I think you have a problem.

You need to have a valid ticket on you when you are travelling, same way as you need to display a ticket in pay and display car parks. For all they know you could just borrow or beg one off another passenger, they need to see that you have paid your fare.

The problem with the credit card payment - for all they know you could have bought a ticket for someone else for an entirely different destination, they do not know for sure that this ticket was what you bought.

One thing I would suggest is that you return to the ticket office you bought it from at a quiet time, having calmed yourself down, and ask if they can trace the transaction by any details that are on your statement. It is important that you stay calm, do not swear, do not call them idiots, say please in the appropriate areas.

I don't wish to sound patronising (which I probably do) but a smile will get you a lot further than a frown, and being polite gets you even further.

Good luck, but be prepared to have to pay the fine.

FARE-COP

Mitchell285 wrote: »

Please dont just pay the fine as it will be easier , i am having ( and for the past 2 months) a dispute with SWT about a penty fare i got , as long as you write in and there is an investigation as to why the ticket isnt paid , you dont need to pay and should you write a letter that is strongly worded enough you might get away with it .

This is simply not true

If you write and appeal the issue of a penalty notice you should get the courtesy of a response

If the appeal is rejected, the penalty remains due

You may write to the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service, who will assess whether the rejection of your appeal was reasonable and if they agree that it is, the penalty remains due

If you do not pay the TOC concerned may then cancel the Penalty Notice and issue a Summons alleging either:

1. That you travelled on the railway and failed to show a valid ticket on demand contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.1

or

2. That you travelled on the railway and failed to show a valid ticket on demand with intent to avoid payment of a fare contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

Both of these are summary only offences, heard by Magistrates Courts and carry a maximum penalty of a fine of up to £1000 on conviction. In the case of the latter (2), in some extreme circumstances there is also an ultimate sanction of imprisonment. This wouldn't apply to conviction for a one-off first offence.

There is no obligation on the TOC to keep an appeal process open indefinitely and if not resolved within the 21 days allowed and advised in writing on the notice this can be quite a quick process thereafter.

Yes, 'a strongly worded letter' might work, but only if you have a genuine case for appeal.

In my 30+ years experience in this work, relying on verbal bullying rarely works for anyone and can be counter-productive.

That latter comment applies to the TOCs too by the way.

.

mindthegapsinlife

I have found a telephone/contact number for IRCAS! 0845 434 8292. I have had great success using this number and I hope you do as well. Please remember to be kind to the staff at IRCAS and good luck!