economy radiator company

john1

For information
BISRA report on an electric radiator test dated June 2012

See http://www.southwestheatingsolutions.co.uk/images/BSRIA%20Final%20Report%2056161-1.pdf

Cardew

the_heating_engineer wrote: »

Thank you for your post CARDEW. I didn't 'choose' the thread, I signed up to the site and saw a question about the Economy Radiator Company whose rads. I have seen in the past and was surprised that their own web-site had running cost info. which I found difficult to accept.
BSRIA have conducted tests on German ceramic storage heating as it happens and they have kindly contacted the Company that paid for them who have been in touch with me. The report is published on their web-site and I have requested some further information from their technical department head who has, by the way, a masters in engineering.

You are missing my point I fear.

When you joined MSE this particular thread was several pages back.

However you found it apparently after perusing loads of posts, and proceeded to 'attack' storage heating and Economy 7.

Apart from the inaccuracies in your posts, this approach of rubbishing storage heating and E7 is exactly the line taken by manufacturers of these type of radiator. More importantly it is exactly the line that has been taken by a number of first time posters like yourself who all claim to be experts.

One cannot help but think that there is some sort of 'game plan' to get people to contribute in favour of these expensive radiators.

Even if you are convinced about storage heaters and E7 being rubbish, why seek out this particular thread to contribute? - which is not about storage heaters and E7

BSRIA have conducted tests on German ceramic storage heating as it happens and they have kindly contacted the Company that paid for them who have been in touch
with me.

Why would a company be in touch with you? For what purpose.

Incidentally the term 'German ceramic storage heating' to describe these radiators is incorrect. They are not storage heaters any more than oil filled radiators are storage heaters.

This BSRIA report kindly supplied by John http://www.southwestheatingsolutions.co.uk/images/BSRIA%20Final%20Report%2056161-1.pdf

is very detailed and I am sure excellent, but contributes nothing to the debate in this thread. It is merely to test the stability of temperatures when this heater is used and has no relevance.

The whole thrust and purpose of this thread is to state unequivocally that these expensive electrical heaters, filled with any substance known to man, produce no more heat than the very cheapest electrical heater(of any type) for the same running cost.

the_heating_engineer

CARDEW states on an earlier post in this thread: Non-storage electrical heaters are the most expensive way of heating a property. The point we are making is that a £10 fan heater, or £30 oil-filled radiator from Argos produces EXACTLY the same amount of heat, for the same running cost, as ANY other electrical heater..

So why are you criticizing me for talking about E7 rads?

Anyway, without doubt this statement of yours is rather bold is it not? It is most certainly untrue in fact. At £3.50 for a string bag of logs I'd say that was rather more expensive way of heating your home and without any doubt whatsoever a well insulated property with a decent non E7 electrical heating system will cost less to effectively heat than E7 simply because the heat output would be much better regulated; I'd say anything less than 0.3 would benefit from getting rid of E7 and installing thermostatically controlled electric heating.

You say,

This BSRIA report kindly supplied by John http://www.southwestheatingsolutions...%2056161-1.pdf
is very detailed and I am sure excellent, but contributes nothing to the debate in this thread. It is merely to test the stability of temperatures when this heater is used and has no relevance.

It is most relevant; the interesting thing about the BSRIA report posted by John is that it enables one to calculate energy usage with this product at any target temperature, any ambient temperature and any uValue variables. I have the formulae to do this and the figures are highly informative.

You state.

Why would a company be in touch with you? For what purpose.

Because I requested if I could be furnished with details of a Company that had at least published a relevant report and they contacted one, at least, who then were kind enough to contact me...! Simple enough.

grahamc2003

the_heating_engineer wrote: »

It is most relevant; the interesting thing about the BSRIA report posted by John is that it enables one to calculate energy usage with this product at any target temperature, any ambient temperature and any uValue variables. I have the formulae to do this and the figures are highly informative.

.

It's easy to get an accurate-enough estimate of the heating requirements for a room of known values of insulation, known ambient temperature and known room target temperature. If you get something like a heat loss of 500W or 1kW depending on those variables, then obviously that's the rate you have to supply heat to maintain the target temperature. Supply more, and the temperature will rise, supply less and it will fall.

The key thing is that is you need 500W, then anything supplying heat at an average of 500W will do - a radiator in a gas system, a storage heater, a £10 fan or a £1700 panel heater.

You seem to think that if you lose heat at a rate of 500W, then the expensive heaters you flog can maintain the target temperature by supplying 250W or something.

the_heating_engineer

I don't 'flog' as you say, radiators.
If 1 kWh is being lost you maintain you only require 1 kWh (or 1 kw/hr) going in. So let me ask you this if I may. You must believe that one 1 kWh rad at one end a room of say 3m X 5.5m will perform as well as two 500 watt rads positioned at either end of the room. Yes?

fishybusiness

You must believe that one 1 kWh rad at one end a room of say 3m X 5.5m will perform as well as two 500 watt rads positioned at either end of the room. Yes?

Really depends on your take of the word 'perform', it is not very precise and open to much interpretation. Can you explain what you mean by 'perform'?

grahamc2003

the_heating_engineer wrote: »

I don't 'flog' as you say, radiators.
If 1 kWh is being lost you maintain you only require 1 kWh (or 1 kw/hr) going in. So let me ask you this if I may. You must believe that one 1 kWh rad at one end a room of say 3m X 5.5m will perform as well as two 500 watt rads positioned at either end of the room. Yes?

1kWh is not 1kW/h.

Until you can grasp that elementary bit of knowledge you really don't stand much chance of progressing your terrible lack of understanding of the basics of heat.

I didn't say heat loss is 1kWh (which is meaningless without a time period), I said a heat loss at a rate of 1kW. (again, you have to understand previous points to understand that, but it is elementary).

Your point about heating in large rooms has absolutely nothing to do with the 'debate' so far. So I'm not sure why you are introducing it (well I am, it's because you don't understand anything in the 'debate' so far).

In a large room 1x1kW heater is likley to produce a less even room temperature profile that 2x500W heaters.

It doesn't matter what type of heaters they are - the above (obviously!) holds. If the aim is for an even room temperature, then a £5 fan heater (or pair) would produce a more even profile than a £1400 (or £20) panel heater (or pair).

Is there some sort of point to your question?

Look mate. You're not an engineer. Your lack of knowledge of heating is astounding if you install these things.I don't know your motivation for posting (nonsense), but there's really nothing special about these panel heaters which people try to flog for extremely high and unwarranted prices, usually to vulnerable people who can't afford to be ripped off. Maybe you install them and you would like to clear your conscience that you are supporting the ripoff of vulnerable people.

fishybusiness

I didn't say heat loss is 1kWh (which is meaningless without a time period), I said a heat loss at a rate of 1kW

So you are an engineer? Heat loss rate of 1kW? That too is meaningless, if you are going to attempt to explain and maybe educate another forum poster, please get your explanations correct.

So are we talking loss rate of 1kW per banana, or perhaps 1kW per circadian cycle?

1kWh is not 1kW/h.

Ok, so that stands as fact, why not explain to others what is the difference and why? Then it is not debateable any more, and other people may become just a little more educated.

I'll start you off......kW/h is a rate of supply..........

grahamc2003

fishybusiness wrote: »

So you are an engineer? Heat loss rate of 1kW? That too is meaningless, if you are going to attempt to explain and maybe educate another forum poster, please get your explanations correct.

So are we talking loss rate of 1kW per banana, or perhaps 1kW per circadian cycle?



Ok, so that stands as fact, why not explain to others what is the difference and why? Then it is not debateable any more, and other people may become just a little more educated.

I'll start you off......kW/h is a rate of supply..........

Oh deary me!

Why do people post when they obviously don't know what they are on about?

And especially why do they try to correct people who are perfectly correct?

No mate, kW/h is not a rate of supply (whatever that is!). It is a rate of change of power, or the differential wrt time of power, which is pretty meaningless outside the power industry (where the units are used as ramp up rates for gensets).

A watt is a joule per second.i.e. rate of use of energy (= power).

Heat loss is measured as a rate of energy loss, in watts.

Please, if you don't understand energy and power, then don't try to correct those who do.

john100000

Just tried to buy an additional radiator from the Economy Radiator Company - an add-on to a current order - and they're trying to charge me £53 for delivery! Their website says £20 delilvery, guaranteed in 48 hours; it will take them in reality 5 days they said. So stuff them. You'd have thought that arrogant little firms like this would recognise that they need their customers, not the other way round.
So I'm now looking at the '
Adax Neo SILVER 400 Watt Slimline Electric Wall Mounted Convector Panel Heater' being sold through eBay by Solaire Heating Products Ltd. Anyone have a view on this, for a kitchen 3.6 x 2.5 m ?