economy radiator company

grahamc2003

the_heating_engineer wrote: »

Electric heating is more expensive than gas heating because gas is about 4p per kw/hr and electric is about 12p per kw/hr. .

OMG. Not a very good start is it? A heating engineer who doesn't even know the units of heat measurement.

The units are kWh, (kilowatt hours) and not kW/h (kilowatts per hour) which are meaningless units.

There are plenty more elementary mistakes in your 'some better information' post.

Anyhow, I look forward to your next post and how you will try to convince people to buy their electric heating at day rates (say 14p/kWh) as opposed to E7 rates (say 5p/kWh).

HappyMJ

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Anyhow, I look forward to your next post and how you will try to convince people to buy their electric heating at day rates (say 14p/kWh) as opposed to E7 rates (say 5p/kWh).

Most of these heaters are sold on a electricity tariff change to the best online rate available such as 12p/kWh for all units and not keeping the E7 rate at all. They are also comparing to the standard non discounted electric tariffs. Moneysavers know how to find the best tariffs but many people stick with a good old standard rate with their local electricity supplier now costing about 15p/kWh and 6p/kWh with my local suppliers standard rate. However, the hot water will now cost 12p/kWh to heat instead of 6p/kWh which in my opinion defeats the point. All this could be acheived with a £10 heater and comparing tariffs....

the_heating_engineer

So before you post again to 'dispel some myths' will you agree that a £10 fan heater or £20 oil filled radiator will produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat, for the same running cost, as these radiators that cost many hundreds or even thousands of pounds each.

Absolutely correct Cardew. (I do seem to note however a note of defensiveness in your first post.)
The problem, having now read some of your previous posts, is that you are applying pure physics in your assertion but it doesn't translate into heating a space quite like that, (although I do understand it maybe appears that way for the purposes of building control part L)
Firstly let's look at gas boiler efficiency shall we. The 90% efficiency (if you're very lucky) we may see in the actual boiler does not pass, in full, through the heated water in the pipes and radiators and secondly, additional heat is lost through the flue. On purely maintenance, service and repair costs for central heating against a decent electric heating system, which should have zero costs for the same, savings are made.
The average price difference for E7 tariff daytime is roughly 40% greater than non E7 tariffs. I see the figures monthly and although the % did drop reasonably significantly at the start of 2012, they're now back to 2010 levels of percentage variation.
As to the additional cost of non E7 tariff to heat water, the price difference for a 5' well insulated tank providing one full tank of hot water per day over one year at 12p per kw/hr compared to 6p per kw/hr E7 is minimal. It is expensive to maintain heat in space, not in water in a well lagged tank. Further UK households use far less hot water today than just 25 years ago. We have cold fill washing machines, dishwashers, etc. and a far greater number of electric showers. A 15 minute shower at 8AM at 16p per hour E7 daytime rate using a 10kw/hr unit costs 40p. A whole tank full of hot water in a 5' tank with a 3kw/hr immersion element at 12p per unit (non E7) costs 36p
I shall not waste much further energy(...!) arguing about your belief that it matters not a jot what electric heating is utilized to heat space other than to say that if you are correct, maybe you should contact BRE to let them know a goodly amount of their SAPS (2012) Draft which becomes live in April 2013 is a waste of research time and a great deal of money meaning their comparisons and rating variation between different electric heating is a nonsense and whilst you're at it, maybe you should also contact BSRIA to inform them their internationally recognized testing laboratory for energy usage and heat effectiveness of radiators is also a waste of money too, as it appears you seem to know better.
In short, simply because a building uValue is say 0.3 and that one only has to introduce 1kw/hr of heat energy into a room in that building that is losing 1kw/hr of heat through the walls, floor, windows and roof is about as simplistic as saying one understands the whole of pure mathematics because one has grasped that 1+1 =2.
So, if a space of 70cu/m 7M X 4M X 2.5M with a typical UK uValue of 0.3 requires 3kw/hr of heating - you CARDEW maintain any 3kw/hr electric heater sited anywhere in the room is all that is required to heat the room as efficiently and effectively as is possible using electricity , do you not?

HappyMJ

I wish I could heat a 210 litre (5 foot) tank of cold water up to 60C using only 3kWh of energy. I think you will find it's a lot more than that. Most 210 litre cylinders would have two immersion elements. When using the mathematical equation to heat a bit less such as 180 litres of water from 15C to 60C it requires 9.5kWh of energy costing 57 pence at the night rate of 6p/kWh or using your 24/7 standard rate of 12p/kWh it would cost £1.14 per day. This would be done every day of the year costing an extra £208 per year on the electricity bill. How can that possibly be saving money?

Cardew

the_heating_engineer wrote: »

So before you post again to 'dispel some myths' will you agree that a £10 fan heater or £20 oil filled radiator will produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat, for the same running cost, as these radiators that cost many hundreds or even thousands of pounds each.

Absolutely correct Cardew. (I do seem to note however a note of defensiveness in your first post.)
The problem, having now read some of your previous posts, is that you are applying pure physics in your assertion but it doesn't translate into heating a space quite like that, (although I do understand it maybe appears that way for the purposes of building control part L)
Firstly let's look at gas boiler efficiency shall we. The 90% efficiency (if you're very lucky) we may see in the actual boiler does not pass, in full, through the heated water in the pipes and radiators and secondly, additional heat is lost through the flue. On purely maintenance, service and repair costs for central heating against a decent electric heating system, which should have zero costs for the same, savings are made.
The average price difference for E7 tariff daytime is roughly 40% greater than non E7 tariffs. I see the figures monthly and although the % did drop reasonably significantly at the start of 2012, they're now back to 2010 levels of percentage variation.
As to the additional cost of non E7 tariff to heat water, the price difference for a 5' well insulated tank providing one full tank of hot water per day over one year at 12p per kw/hr compared to 6p per kw/hr E7 is minimal. It is expensive to maintain heat in space, not in water in a well lagged tank. Further UK households use far less hot water today than just 25 years ago. We have cold fill washing machines, dishwashers, etc. and a far greater number of electric showers. A 15 minute shower at 8AM at 16p per hour E7 daytime rate using a 10kw/hr unit costs 40p. A whole tank full of hot water in a 5' tank with a 3kw/hr immersion element at 12p per unit (non E7) costs 36p
I shall not waste much further energy(...!) arguing about your belief that it matters not a jot what electric heating is utilized to heat space other than to say that if you are correct, maybe you should contact BRE to let them know a goodly amount of their SAPS (2012) Draft which becomes live in April 2013 is a waste of research time and a great deal of money meaning their comparisons and rating variation between different electric heating is a nonsense and whilst you're at it, maybe you should also contact BSRIA to inform them their internationally recognized testing laboratory for energy usage and heat effectiveness of radiators is also a waste of money too, as it appears you seem to know better.
In short, simply because a building uValue is say 0.3 and that one only has to introduce 1kw/hr of heat energy into a room in that building that is losing 1kw/hr of heat through the walls, floor, windows and roof is about as simplistic as saying one understands the whole of pure mathematics because one has grasped that 1+1 =2.
So, if a space of 70cu/m 7M X 4M X 2.5M with a typical UK uValue of 0.3 requires 3kw/hr of heating - you CARDEW maintain any 3kw/hr electric heater sited anywhere in the room is all that is required to heat the room as efficiently and effectively as is possible using electricity , do you not?

1. Ok, a good start! We have agreed that radiators from the Economy Radiator Company(and Rointe/Wibo etc) give out no more heat, for the same running cost, than a £10 fan heater or £20 oil filled radiator from Argos. Or for that matter my granny’s 3 bar electric fire.

2. You haven’t commented on your statement that

'they(storage heaters) cannot convect unless they have fans so your ceiling temperature will be about 7 degrees F. more than your floor.

Come to think of it, not a single radiator in most Gas CH systems have a fan; so presumably they suffer from the same inability to ‘convect’.

Have you not studied the information in the link for the GCSE paper;

The average price difference for E7 tariff daytime is roughly 40% greater than non E7 tariffs. I see the figures monthly and although the % did drop reasonably significantly at the start of 2012, they're now back to 2010 levels of percentage variation.

Simply not true; go to www.energyhelpline.com and enter details. For my area(Midlands) it is typically a 15% premium on E7 daytime rates over non E7 tariffs.

For my E7 tariff(dual fuel – and started this September) electricity is 3.2% more than a non E7 tariff – 11.792p/kWh(E7 tariff) against 11.426p/kWh(non E7) plus 1p/kWh extra for 900 Tier 1 units.

A 15 minute shower at 8AM at 16p per hour E7 daytime rate using a 10kw/hr unit costs 40p. A whole tank full of hot water in a 5' tank with a 3kw/hr immersion element at 12p per unit (non E7) costs 36p

You must be a salesman to come out with that nonsense – do your customers actually take in that sort of rubbish?

Leaving aside your meaningless ‘3kw/hr immersion element’ terminology! A standard 5 foot hot water tank holds 210 litres of water. Please give us the benefit of your heating engineer training and explain( with calculations please) how 3kWh will heat the tank ‘full of hot water’.

Instead of trying(and failing) to impress us with your knowledge, why not give us your sales pitch and some reasons why your product is money saving.

the_heating_engineer

1. What product? I don't understand.
2. I have a 5' tank, I have my immersion on for 1 hour a day on a timer, I get virtually a tank of hot water. In summer it reaches 61 degrees c. in winter about 53 degrees c. I recommend the same to those that ask and I fit a timer where requested.
3. The average DIFFERENCE PAID by consumers for E7 daytime tariff is 40% greater - I did not quote the average difference available.
4. The fluting on the rear of wet rads increases convection. E7 rads do not have fluting.
5. The temperature difference between floor and ceiling with panel radiators is easily found with the correct hand held equipment - most heating engineers carry one. Typically the difference on a cold day with ambient temperature of 6 degrees C. at midday, the room temperature variation with E7 is 3 to 4 degrees.
6. You say that modern E7 rads have improved insulation, what planet are you living on? The insulation in early E7 DOMESTIC rads was asbestos, which is now banned. The last recently made E7 rad I opened came from China, (to replace a broken element for an elderly neighbour) it was branded with a well known UK manufacturer's name. It had 1cm light weight polystyrene insulation on the sides only for some reason, a complete joke. The output dial controlled a typical lightweight tin plate with no insulation whatsoever, in short a sop.
7. E7 heating is now almost impossible to sell, nobody wants it. The market is almost completely replacement and the shame is, many elderly people have had Warmfront recommending replacement E7 and I used to go along to fit a product which they hoped would be better than their old hated E7, and it was worse. Why? because the rads are all coming in from the far East and they're rubbish. Additionally, the elements often break quickly, spares are difficult to obtain after a while because they're 'batch' manufactured; the bricks are of a poorer quality so fissure more quickly, they're certainly a lower density.
8. The poor SAPS (2013) code for E7 rads. puts them at the bottom of the pile.
9. Fan assisted E7 rads are in the new Green Deal, basic E7 thankfully, is not. So although the fans are driven by non E7 power, (meaning they use even more electricity,) they are better because the room temperature variation is lowered, i.e. the floor area is warmer at the expense of the ceiling temperature and THIS, I'm afraid is something CARDEW cannot get his head around because he frankly doesn't know what he's talking about. The problem with them is that, in a domestic environment, users switch the fan power supply off because they've either forgotten the benefit or no-one explained it to them properly on installation or when they moved in to the property.
It's not rocket science, properly conducted independent testing carried out at BSRIA and BRE clearly shows that although the total amount of heat generated from ALL rads of the same kw/hr is EXACTLY the same, this has nothing to do with the actual temperatures at various points in the room and thus the comfort of the people in the room. Maybe CARDEW lives on the ceiling in his house, I don't know!
If one removes the fins (or flutes) from the rear of a wet radiator the rad will still GENERATE the same amount of heat but the person in the room would not obtain as much benefit from that heat.
The difference this makes, according to all the test results, are highly significant. Additionally, any heating engineer knows that increasing the surface area of a rad, without decreasing the wattage, will, of course, lessen the surface temperature of the rad (whilst knocking out the same amount of heat) but the heat will be spread far more evenly throughout the room, thus again increasing the comfort level.

grahamc2003

Jeeze - I can see why 'engineers' are thought of so lowly in the UK.

The engineering council have really failed in their duty by not enforcing qualifications before anyone can use the term 'engineer'.

So a professional engineer with at least 7 years training and a degree is looked upon in the same way as the unqualified and scientifically ignorant in the extreme person above, who also calls himself an 'engineer'.

Your views are just so far from the actual situation that it's difficult to know where to start to correct your nonsense, as every sentence is.

Still using kw/h I see.

the_heating_engineer

grahamc2003
Really?

I have just re-read an email in my inbox from BRE that uses the term kw/hr. kWh is more common = maybe it depends on your age. Everything else in my post is correct however I concede that I, like many others, do not actually use a tank of hot water per day BUT my immersion is on for 1 hour a day.
In regard to E7 (again) it's dying out, period. No-one likes it any more, they prefer, I assume,to control their heating and not have a living room at 26 degrees at 7 am and 16 degrees at 6pm. Go figure!
E7 daytime rates vary geographically. In areas with little mains gas they are significantly more expensive.

fishybusiness

You know, when someone pops up with an opinion that isn't that of the regular posters, I wonder why those regular posters suddenly become experts at everything.

Here's typical example of an expert that isn't

The units are kWh, (kilowatt hours) and not kW/h (kilowatts per hour) which are meaningless units.

So, are kW/h meaningless?

There are very meaningful, but not in the context they were used. So, 'the heating engineer' gets slated by experts that can't even get it right themselves.

You know, he has some good points and even though you consider he is not 100% correct, his opinion is as worthy as many of you so called experts.

grahamc2003

fishybusiness wrote: »

You know, when someone pops up with an opinion that isn't that of the regular posters, I wonder why those regular posters suddenly become experts at everything.

Here's typical example of an expert that isn't



So, are kW/h meaningless?

There are very meaningful, but not in the context they were used. So, 'the heating engineer' gets slated by experts that can't even get it right themselves.

You know, he has some good points and even though you consider he is not 100% correct, his opinion is as worthy as many of you so called experts.

The science of heat transfer is thermodynamics. Opinions don't really enter into it. What he is saying in several instances just breaches thermodynamics. You are simply backing up someone who effectively has an opinion that 2+2=3.

Perhaps you could expand where kW/h is a useful measurement, or perhaps explain what it actually is a unit of. Everything is judged in context. Could you also tell us what the good points in his post are? Thanks.