economy radiator company

HappyMJ

the_heating_engineer wrote: »

2. I have a 5' tank, I have my immersion on for 1 hour a day on a timer, I get virtually a tank of hot water. In summer it reaches 61 degrees c. in winter about 53 degrees c. I recommend the same to those that ask and I fit a timer where requested.
3. The average DIFFERENCE PAID by consumers for E7 daytime tariff is 40% greater - I did not quote the average difference available.

You really mustn't be using much hot water at all. Most people would use about 45 litres of hot water per person per day bathing, washing hands several times and washing dishes every day which is why I used 180 litres for a family of four. The figures from the EFUS survey added an extra 4 litres for washing clothes but that is usually heated by a cold feed washing machine so I have not included those extra litres. I even gave a very high starting temperature for the cold water of 15 degrees to give you the benefit of the doubt. In winter the temperature of the incoming cold water could be as low as a couple of degrees.

An average of 40% or greater...please show at least one tariff with a major supplier in which the E7 day rate is at least 40% higher than the corresponding standard rate with the same supplier on the same terms....i.e online billing with direct debit...or pay as you go or whatever tariff you can find.

Cardew

fishybusiness wrote: »

So, are kW/h meaningless?

In the context he uses them they are wrong e.g.

A whole tank full of hot water in a 5' tank with a 3kw/hr immersion element

amount of heat generated from ALL rads of the same kw/hr

He calls himself 'the heating engineer', and tries to set himself up as an expert, yet he obviously is not an 'engineer'.

Apart from the wrong terminology, he very clearly doesn't have a clue about thermodynamics as his utterances on heat convection demonstrate.

He is totally wrong about the amount of energy need to heat water.

Totally wrong about the economics of Economy 7 and storage heaters

Why did he join MSE to comment specifically on a thread about the Economic Radiator Company.

Quite frankly he is typical of a number of first time posters, who try to promote hugely expensive electric radiators in the same manner.

First and foremost their Modus operandi is to rubbish Economy 7 and storage heating. Now without doubt there are limitations with storage heating, but also points of merit - not least that E7 provides heating and hot water at roughly half the cost of a normal 24/7 tariff.

Well the discussion on this thread is not about the merits or demerits of storage heating. It is about the claims of manufacturers like the Economy Radiator Company, Rointe/Wibo etc who claim/imply that somehow their radiators are more efficient than simple oil filled radiators or fan heaters.

The cost of some of these radiators marketed by these companies is simply unbelievable. Many hundreds of pounds each, in fact a case reported recently of a single radiator costing £1,400.

Next our heating engineer keeps quoting reports and studies in an attempt to impress the gullible, but gives no references for these publications. Why not? What do they say to support people paying £hundreds instead of £tens?

Some of us have spent a working lifetime reading technical reports; we will happily read them.

It appears our man fits heaters, may we enquire what make he recommends?

Lastly this is a Money Saving Website and readers who have little technical knowledge need to be informed of the rubbish spouted by some posters with a vested interest.

Edit.

Apart from his claim that E7 daytime tariffs are 40% more expensive, he now comes up with this:

E7 daytime rates vary geographically. In areas with little mains gas they are significantly more expensive.

Examples please.

Does that mean that areas with loads of mains gas are cheaper?

the_heating_engineer

In my part of the world, which is rural, E7 daytime rates from the likes of EDF are around 15p per unit, and EDF here are by far, the most common supplier. I'd say 60% of my customers are with EDF whether they have E7 or not. Over the last few days we all know new rates have been announced and at present I do not have the information to hand about how much this will effect daytime E7 tariffs in the postcode areas I work in. Whilst EDF rates were about 15p, non E7 tariffs have been between 10.5p and 11.5p. The most common E7 rate I see from EDF on my customers bills is 15.9p per kw/hr (or kWh if you prefer.)
Whatever Cardew says about E7, the fact is, I really cannot remember the last time I was contracted to retro fit it as a new heating system. Years ago, SWEB had a specialist team I could ring to book in the fitting of an E7 meter but it was disbanded long ago sometime after EDF bought them out. I speak with Western Power pretty frequently; they are contracted by the virtually all the energy providers around here to conduct meter renewals etc. and they've told me that most of the work they do concerning E7 meters is to remove them completely and they often will move the E7 tails into the 24 hour meter to provide electric to the old E7 hard wire sockets at the same time. The instances of them fitting E7 meters for E7 are very rare, if ever, these days. THAT'S A FACT.
So, whatever Cardew says, the market is moving away from E7 because they just don't like its hopeless technology and I really don't think Cardew has actually looked inside one because he said modern ones are better insulated! I've just booked in a specialist asbestos removal firm (Shield Environmental) to remove an asbestos lined E7 rad with manual damping from a property south of Bristol and the home owner told me that compared to the others in her home which are modern, her old one was fantastic. The only reason its going is 3 of the 4 elements in this 3.4 kw job have now failed.
Dimplex are, by a long way, the biggest providers of E7 rads to social housing landlords, and they have introduced a new E7 rad called DuoHeat, I believe. This rad needs to be also wired up to a 24 hour supply as it has a panel heater running on normal electric for back up during the evening. A 3.4 Kw rad has a 2kw/hr, (sorry kWh!) back up. This product doesn't get over the problem with E7 generated heat being so difficult to regulate and what would worry me is the 2kWh at high tariffs would cost a lot to run! I read on the Dimplex web-site a case study of these rads being retro fitted into a block of flats in London but tellingly it says that they have heard no reports of complaints of running costs but it has nothing to say at all about what actual energy usage is being recorded which is disappointing. If anyone has any information on them, I'd be grateful to read it.
It does appear Cardew and his 'friends' seem to be knocking me only on my comments on my immersion and how I write kw/hr, everything else I write about is just dismissed as 'rubbish' with no explanation as to why. Again, I will say that in my home, with the 2 of us, using both an electric shower and a MIRA shower, a cold fill washing machine and cold fill dishwasher, 1 hour a day of my 3kw/hr immersion heater is plenty. Many of my customers are in a similar position with similar appliances and 1 hour a day is enough for them but for some households hot water use is greater and therefore to heat 200+ litres of cold water every day would require more than 1 hour.
As to him saying a £20 fan heater is as good as any other electric heating, he must be very disappointed that there can't be many home owners that have taken up his advice! I don't come across them anyway. Who does? Further if, as he maintains, it doesn't matter what, or where, the radiator is placed then I'd like to see one fitted on the ceiling and ask the poor householder how comfortable they are on a cold winter's night! Or maybe I'll remove the 1.5kw panel rad I wall mounted into our spare bedroom for when my grand-daughter comes to stay and replace it with an iron of the same wattage!
What I do think is that although CARDEW has some valid points to make, I see he's been on here for so long hammering home the same stuff, he now feels under 'attack' from me and he's just got to rubbish me in order to maintain his credibility but if I followed his advice I'd have gone out of business years ago because my customers would think I was an idiot!

He is definitely correct about some products of a very high price being not much, if any better, than others that are much cheaper. He mentions a brand called Rointe and he is right there. When they first appeared they were making the most outrageous claims and I believe they were reprimanded by the ASA very strongly. I once googled ELNUR, who make what appears to be a very similar product, and I came across dozens of suppliers making no stupid claims for them at all, other than they were attractive and could be wall mounted. They were much cheaper, but I imagine that the ROINTE brand had rather higher marketing costs, so that could partially explain the difference in price, I really just don't know for sure.

As to WIBO, I have installed them on one occasion and I have no idea myself how good this model is but they were extraordinarily expensive. The customer's had them in a previous property and they were simply moving them into their new home. When they told me how much they originally cost I was gob smacked, I can't remember exactly but I seem to remember them saying the 8 or so rads had originally cost them £14 or £15,000!! They really did love them and I was very careful not to damage them!
I've done about a dozen installations of this type of radiator now and you need 2 people to mount them as they are very heavy. In every case but one, (where the customer was replacing oil fired central heating,) I had to remove E7 and the last few I've done were all recommendations from other people already using them. I fitted a big one of I think, 2.5 kw, in a very exposed and very big conservatory on Dartmoor and the home owner later called me back in to replace all her E7 with these German jobbies. She must have been happy enough, but they were not the WIBO ones and I think were much less expensive. They may be a good idea to think about for conservatories or houses with high ceilings because E7 rads are definitely not suitable for these applications at all.

Now to the Economy Radiator Company! I've looked at their web-site and they have a very detailed breakdown of running costs. It's all meaningless. Without very highly detailed information of the property insulation, the ambient temperatures and the target temperatures they're just claims and I don't believe their figures match what one would expect to see in their own property. For example, these German Passivhous properties have such a remarkable uValue they could be probably heated quite adequately with a candle or two. So here I am in agreement to an extent with CARDEW. In fact it is regrettable that there seems to be such a lack of published, detailed energy usage figures compiled by a recognized, independent laboratory, not just for small firms products but also for the big boys like Dimplex or Creda. At a recent discussion arranged by BSRIA, during a question and answer session we were told that their tests are compiled in such a way that energy usage could be then calculated on any building with any given variable of uValue, & target and ambient temperature. Evidently they do quite a few of these tests which take about a week, but it's up to the client to publish the results. As long as you have the formulas, anyone can then make calculations on their property and their circumstances. Now that would be a good idea! I will speak again to BSRIA and ask if they do know who have published relevant results and if I can find anything, I'll let you know!!

Cardew

You really need to get your facts correct.

market is moving away from E7 because they just don't like its hopeless technology and I really don't think Cardew has actually looked inside one because he said modern ones are better insulated

Firstly I said nothing about better insulation in modern storage heaters. That was another poster see post #159.

Secondly I am not, and never have been, a great fan of storage heating, I totally accept their limitations. However used sensibly they are a better proposition for most people than electrical heating on a 24/7 tariff; particularly if you are at home all day. The heating of hot water using off-peak is a big saving.

With regard to Economy 7, you were the one who stated:

E7 daytime tariffs are around 30% to 55% more than say your next door neighbour with central heating on a normal single rate tariff.

No caveats just a bald statement that is simply untrue. 15% is a more representative figure and for my tariff E7 is 3.2% more.

Many people with gas and oil CH still have E7 because they can make it pay. The break even point can be less than 20% of total consumption on some tariffs and with judicious use of appliances at night, and particularly if you get up early and shower etc you can use well in excess of 20%. Those with oil and LPG CH can heat their water on E7 considerably cheaper than using their boiler. In fact with a old inefficient gas boiler(with a 'flamethrower' pilot light!) E7 can also be cheaper.

. A 3.4 Kw rad has a 2kw/hr, (sorry kWh!) back up

Still incorrect! it is 3.4kW and 2kW back-up.(both kw/hr and kWh are incorrect when talking about the output of any electrical device.

Dimplex are, by a long way, the biggest providers of E7 rads to social housing landlords, and they have introduced a new E7 rad called DuoHeat, I believe. This rad needs to be also wired up to a 24 hour supply as it has a panel heater running on normal electric for back up during the evening. A 3.4 Kw rad has a 2kw/hr, (sorry kWh!) back up. This product doesn't get over the problem with E7 generated heat being so difficult to regulate and what would worry me is the 2kWh at high tariffs would cost a lot to run!

Incidentally I am not aware of any 3.4kW Duoheat radiator or any with a 2kW back-up. This is the only brochure tech spec I can find

http://www.dimplex.co.uk/products/domestic_heating/installed_heating/duoheat_radiator/duoheat_radiator/technical_specification.htm

However this thread is not about E7 or storage heaters, so I wonder why you adopt exactly the same tactics as these firms, and many first time posters, in trying to concentrate on those issues. One cannot but think you have been put up to it. The issue is the claims and high prices of these firms for electrical heating.

Yes a £20 oil filled rad will produce as much heat as a £1,400 heater for the same running cost, and can have the same fluting etc that you seem to feel important.

If your theory on heating convection is to be believed - with warm spots and heat staying on the ceiling, - the ideal heater is a £10 3kW fan heater.

not just for small firms products but also for the big boys like Dimplex or Creda. At a recent discussion arranged by BSRIA, during a question and answer session we were told that their tests are compiled in such a way that energy usage could be then calculated on any building with any given variable of uValue, & target and ambient temperature.

This is just another red herring when we are talking about simple electrical radiators. Sizing is simply not critical. If a room is calculated to need 1.78453kW to maintain the room at xxC when it is yyC outside, it doesn't matter if a 2kW or 3kW heater is fitted. When the room has reached xxC, the same zzkWh will have been consumed regardless of the size of the heater.

grahamc2003

In my part of the world, which is rural, E7 daytime rates from the likes of EDF are around 15p per unit,


Instead of speculation of e7 pricing, here's my tariff prices as of today with no increase due for a couple of years ...

Night 5.777p/kWh including vat
Day 11.986p/kWh including vat
standing charge cost 30p/day including Vat

annual discount £10.

I'm perfectly happy with those costs - the average cost/kWh last week, including everything, was 6.63p/kWh, and this will lower as the night usage increases as the storage heaters are turned up.

If I were to switch away from e7 and onto a single tariff, my costs would really rocket by 70/80/90%, even allowing for a slightly decreased usage.

Storage heaters are fine for us. They are modern slimline, therefore have much better insulation than thicker older types (and I see the insulation property in dispute yet again!). They are a perfectly adequate heating system, with no maintenance (so no maintenance costs) but will never match the convenience of gas CH (but most with storage heaters these days aren't on the gas grid, so it's moot). In general, I'd say the thick >30 year old storage heaters are not an acceptable heating system - and that's where the bad reputation comes from. And companies flogging cheap convector heaters for an exorbitant price play on that and even encourage it, as we see.

I'd say it's never preferable to replace modern SH with expensive convector heaters. For a few people who are out in the day and not home till late (and therefore SH aren't a good fit), then simply don't use the SH, and turn on an instant heater when you arrive home. At the weekend, use the SH.

For those who prefer more control and don't have gas - then either heatpumps or pellet stoves may be a better option, and they'll come with probably large taxpayer funded grants - convecter heaters (like 'economy radiators') won't.

the_heating_engineer

I would love to see the tariffs you have quoted here in the south-west. If anyone reads this and lives in Cornwall, Devon or Somerset and knows who is supplying E7 at 11p or 12p, I'd appreciate the info. I've loads of customers that would be delighted to move over!!

Below are some links (if they submit s I'm a new user)) you may find interesting regarding positioning of rads in a room (pros & cons) and basic stuff on rad design. BSRIA appears to have done tests on dozens of electric radiators, they're going to request which of their members have published these tests and send me links. I spoke with a friend this evening a materials engineer with a masters in engineering that's done some work on fluting design and materials re: heat transfer. He tells me there's been some interesting studies he's read recently (in Jordan, of all places!) He knows one of the scientists at BSRIA and confirms that, whilst the efficiency is always 100% the ability of a radiator to heat space is variable.
Interestingly he read one study that indicated the colour of a panel rad made a difference to energy download in laboratory conditions, evidently we should paint all our rads black...!
I know this is only anecdotal but when fitting electric and wet heated towel rails, I, and others, all seem to agree that white ones appear to work better than exactly the same model in chrome and this doesn't vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Cardew

The heating engineer,

Can you not understand why you have riled people?

You came onto this forum like a storm as the self-proclaimed expert who would dispel some myths.

For some reason you delved back several pages in this forum and found a thread entitled 'Economy Radiator Company' and proceeded to rubbish storage heaters and Economy 7 and adopted exactly the same line as the manufacturers of some vastly over-priced electrical heaters; as well as some other posters who have obviously been put up to toe the company line.

It begs the question why, as a first time poster, did you choose this thread when there are loads of threads on the merits and demerits of storage heaters and Economy 7?

Well it transpires that you are a fitter, not an engineer, and you very clearly are lacking in knowledge about several aspects of electrical heaters; yet you see fit to offer advice on some matters for which you have no useful contribution to make.

You made sweeping statements, with no caveats, about the additional costs of daytime E7 rates. Now it transpires you were only talking about EDF tariffs in the West Country.

Similarly with water heating, you costed in detail how much to heat a full tank of hot water; again with no caveats. When that was shown to be nonsense, your defence was it is only for your particular household circumstances, where you apparently use virtually no hot water.

Your theory on heat convection is again a complete nonsense, yet you imply there are technical trials that prove your point. However you offer no evidence from BSRIA or any of the organisations that you 'name drop' that support your stance.

Do you not feel if there was a particular electrical heater that out- performed other heaters, that WHICH, The Energy Saving Trust and indeed the Government would not be recommending such an appliance?

Do you not feel that some of us seek out, read(and understand!) technical reports on this subject?

The bottom line is that there are companies selling electrical heaters to unsuspecting and trusting folk, mainly pensioners, and ripping them off for thousands of pounds - just read some of the cases on MSE. Yet people like yourself, either unwittingly or by design, come onto MSE professing to be experts and lend support to these companies. You should really consider your stance.

the_heating_engineer

Thank you for your post CARDEW. I didn't 'choose' the thread, I signed up to the site and saw a question about the Economy Radiator Company whose rads. I have seen in the past and was surprised that their own web-site had running cost info. which I found difficult to accept.
BSRIA have conducted tests on German ceramic storage heating as it happens and they have kindly contacted the Company that paid for them who have been in touch with me. The report is published on their web-site and I have requested some further information from their technical department head who has, by the way, a masters in engineering.

castanley

Here is what I am paying for E7 in North Hampshire with OVO
Day =£0.1159
Night=£0.0623
On the subject of the expensive radiators I have one comment to add. I accept that while they are on, the electric current to heat conversion is the same as cheaper radiators. However one advantage of the more expensive radiators is that they have very accurate thermostats that can be set to within half a degree. The cheaper rads just have a wheel marked 1-5 and cannot be set to maintain an accurate temperature. I have one of the expensive rads in my porch which I set at 16 degrees. I have tested using another thermometer and the rad is never on unless the temperature drops below 16. The rad can be set to suit both your comfort level and pocket.

grahamc2003

The accuracy of the thermostat is unrelated to the resolution of the dial markings.

I also think the accuracy (or not) of the thermostat is a bit of a red herring. There'll be a very minor effect on comfort and cost if a thermostat throws at 16C+-0.1C or 16C +- 0.5C as the power on temp, the differential between power on and power off setting will be much more important.

Another reason that a lab accurate temperature sensing isn't necessary is due to it's probably not clear at all exactly what temperature is being measured, and that depends on the location of the sensor (and of course, it's only that small location which is being measured and not for example, the average room temperature).