The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

IvanOpinion

bbb_uk wrote: »

I've mentioned this before but all I ask for is that the local/national lies stop and that consumers are made aware that when they ring these numbers in most cases the company they ring is making money (even whilst they are held in a queue for 20+ minutes)!

That I would agree with, along with a 'voice over' that told you of your position in the queue or the likely hold time (the technology is available for this), I would even go further and suggest that the first minute should be at national call rates thereby allowing the person to decide whether or not they wish to stay on hold or phone back later (or in some cases read the manual and literature that they received) ... unfortunately that is NOT what the petition is asking for.

I also do not think it is fair to compare one country with another. Each country has different priorities, different scales of customer base, different competitive strategies and different ways of doing business (I am sure they have different ways of recovering revenue). And, as someone else points out 5-10p per minute would not even cover minimum wage jobs. And I repeat I do not want the base product price to be raised simply to cover support that I do not want and will probably not use. Can I also point out that some firms (e.g. airlines) offer a discount for booking online ... I would prefer that to remain instead of being removed because someone 'might' want to contact their call centre.

I know it is a bit OT but it always amuses me that some people get all hyper over 0870 but yet waste a fortune dialling reality TV numbers (often because the hostess says 'it is so close, your vote counts' ... when in reality you would need over a million votes to swing the result).

Ivan

theloft

These 0870 numbers have been a bone of contention with consumers as soon as companies realised that:- a. they could save money by dispensing with operators b. increase revenue from existing customers with a small amount earned from each phone call to them c. increase that revenue by long & complicated menus d. save even more jobs by moving their call centres abroad. It has been reported that one large bank made over half a million from telephone call revenue! With their huge profits did they need it ? Companies in the USA could not compete if they did not offer freephone calls to them and there is no reason at all why they cannot do that here and build in the costs. Consumer is king in the USA and watch out UK companies, because it will gradually become the norm over here as well. As a previous poster said we are too polite in this country, but websites like this and comparison sites are beginning to show the true picture. I totally agree with Heinz - bbb_uk and the others. I think IvanOpinion should come clean and say whose axe he is grinding! It is complete nonsense to say that 0870 allows companies to give a better service. How is it that when you can get a freephone number or a geographical number for a company, you get exactly the same service (usually poor). A typical example is Insurance companies who, when they are trying to get your business, offer a freephone number, but if you have a query, complaint, or even a claim, then you have to use an 0870 number. What really bugs me though is if I want to buy something and am just making an enquiry, I have to pay them for the privilege. And again, if when having purchased an item, I have a complaint or query, they make even more money.
Sign the petition - definitely !!

IvanOpinion

theloft wrote: »

I think IvanOpinion should come clean and say whose axe he is grinding! It is complete nonsense to say that 0870 allows companies to give a better service. How is it that when you can get a freephone number or a geographical number for a company, you get exactly the same service (usually poor).

The only axe I am weilding is the one for common sense . You have totally misunderstood what I am saying .. I have never once said there would be any difference in service. What I have said is that I want the base price for a product to be as cheap as possible and those that need extra help can then pay for it ... why should (e.g.) I pay an extra £10 for a product because I 'might' have to contact the callcentre.

A typical example is Insurance companies who, when they are trying to get your business, offer a freephone number, but if you have a query, complaint, or even a claim, then you have to use an 0870 number. What really bugs me though is if I want to buy something and am just making an enquiry, I have to pay them for the privilege. And again, if when having purchased an item, I have a complaint or query, they make even more money.

I have previously said that sales lines should not be 0870. In your example though you are looking for additional information and to utilise the services of the company ... they are not free ... would you accept (again purely for example) that they add £20 to every insurance policy that you buy just in case you need to make a claim, plus another £5 incase you need additional advice?

To further the example would you suggest that the likes of airlines should offer freephone numbers but instead they will stop giving the usual £10 online discount (just in case you need to phone them with a query). The majority of calls to call centres could be solved using common sense and reading the information the customer already has .. who should pay for those . I don;t want to.

Sign the petition - definitely

Sorry, but it is too generic and could mean I have to pay more for services that I do not want or use.

ivan

scheming_gypsy

DonnyDave wrote: »

But the purpose of providing a geographical number is not because we do not like the technology of NTS. It is because of the charging arrangements. There were over 1000 responses to Ofcom's consultation, NTS: A way forward, many of which were from consumers. Any companies that disagree with the charging arrangements but require the benefits of NTS should have responded stating that. Not responding is like not voting in an election and then complaining about decisions made by elected representatives.

Like i've said a few times, i'm not arguing about the charging arrangements. I'm still just saying it's not always possible to give the geographical number as that number can and often does change.
I spend far too much time having to track calls because they've come through on the wrong number and gone to the wrong department, quite often to find that there's not a problem with the system. To be honest i really can do without it!!

So which is the response from your company?

Again, as i've already stated the company i work for uses 0800 numbers but some of the clients use 0845 / 0870 and we've no control over these.

bbb_uk

IvanOpinion wrote: »

I know it is a bit OT but it always amuses me that some people get all hyper over 0870 but yet waste a fortune dialling reality TV numbers (often because the hostess says 'it is so close, your vote counts' ... when in reality you would need over a million votes to swing the result)

Well ironically, if a company where to have an 09x costing 10p/min then it would be most likely cheaper to ring that than an 0870 which means the companies get more money from 0870 compared to a simliar cost 09x number.

IvanOpinion wrote: »

What I have said is that I want the base price for a product to be as cheap as possible and those that need extra help can then pay for it ... why should (e.g.) I pay an extra £10 for a product because I 'might' have to contact the callcentre.

I take it you firmly believe that 0870 numbers help keep prices down? I personally would like to think that but there has been no evidence that this is true. Things increase all the time mostly because of Rip off Britain and its high taxes and 'red tape'.

In your example though you are looking for additional information and to utilise the services of the company ... they are not free ... would you accept (again purely for example) that they add £20 to every insurance policy that you buy just in case you need to make a claim, plus another £5 incase you need additional advice?

No proof really that having an 0870 makes it cheaper. For example, where I'm working now (government authority) has a database that is maintained by a company. This company now charges a couple of thousand pound for tech support queries if any arise, or I assume for any bug fixes/amendments. The chances of them having to do any bug fixes/amendments are slim and get slimer as time goes on and the database does everything that is required. Yet, this company has an 0870 number for tech support.

Do you really believe that despite receiving a couple of thousand pounds from where I work (and yet more money from other government authorities that also use the database) for the odd amendment, etc that they should also utilise an 0870 as well? Bear in mind that I know this company is small and only one person ever looks after this specific database and makes amendments/bug fixes, etc so therefore the couple of thousand pound received from the several government authorities that also utilise the database must pay for his wages alone but yet they utilise an 0870 to receive further revenue?!

I don't believe they have reason to utilise an 0870 for tech support (especially as they receive so much) for the few things that now need doing which, as I said, get less and less as time goes on?

This company only uses an 0870 so they can earn 'extra' revenue and increase their profit margin more without their customers knowing. Obviously, this 'extra' revenue and therefore increase in their profit margin is ultimately paid for by tax payers like you and I.

You can carry on thinking that companies using 0870 offer cheaper products/services but like I said I personally believe its because they can earn money without the consumer (or their customers which could be other businesses) knowing they are receiving money from the call.

This is why 0870 isn't just used for tech support, etc but used for sales, general enquiries, etc.

DonnyDave

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

Like i've said a few times, i'm not arguing about the charging arrangements. I'm still just saying it's not always possible to give the geographical number as that number can and often does change. …

I appreciate that. From the consumer's point of view, the issue is call price, and the fact that is it more than a geographical call. Thus, with the present scheme, we want geographical numbers.

If the new 03 numbers work as proposed, where they are charged inline with 01/02 numbers, then this will provide the solution which is a satisfies both consumers' wishes to not have to pay extra and SPs' need to have call routing, statistics and so on.

bbb_uk

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

I'm still just saying it's not always possible to give the geographical number as that number can and often does change.

That maybe true in the odd circumstances but why utilise an 087x number when an 0845, although not ideal, offers the same benefits and most communication providers offer this number for free including routing to several call centres, etc?

In my opinion, any company/gov dept utilising an 0870 is in for the money and not it's benefits otherwise they could use an 0845 if the non-geographical benefits are really important to them.

scheming_gypsy

DonnyDave wrote: »

I appreciate that. From the consumer's point of view, the issue is call price, and the fact that is it more than a geographical call. Thus, with the present scheme, we want geographical numbers.

If the new 03 numbers work as proposed, where they are charged inline with 01/02 numbers, then this will provide the solution which is a satisfies both consumers' wishes to not have to pay extra and SPs' need to have call routing, statistics and so on.

i agree, and with any luck it might stop me getting calls on my mobile at 8am on a Saturday morning (work number routes to my mobile)from somebody wanting to make a claim :rolleyes: cos they might have got the number from saynoto0870 :rotfl:

IvanOpinion

bbb_uk wrote: »

Well ironically, if a company where to have an 09x costing 10p/min then it would be most likely cheaper to ring that than an 0870 which means the companies get more money from 0870 compared to a simliar cost 09x number.

Just went through my phone bill .. the most expensive 0870 number was 7p per minute ... compared to £1.50 to phone some of these reality shows (which fortunately there were none on my phone bill because if there had have been DW would have received a good kicking for being so stupid). .

I take it you firmly believe that 0870 numbers help keep prices down? I personally would like to think that but there has been no evidence that this is true.

Yes they do and there is evidence there for it. I have worked in several marketing departments, and often (but not always) projections do take into account customer contact. I have personally worked on systems that deliberately discourage people from contacting call centres (because that costs the company money). The evidence is plainly there for people to see ... e.g. additional discounts for ordering online, discounts offered via broker sites, extra interest for telephone/no-contact banking etc.

Things increase all the time mostly because of Rip off Britain and its high taxes and 'red tape'.

Search the web . you will find 'Rip off' siotes for just about every country in the world ... people who use the 'rip off Britain' tag always seem to compare those things that are high priced and ignore the things that are cheaper ... each country puts different priorities on different things. While there is a lot in the UK that I believe is 'rip off' (especially government) it is only because other things are cheaper here than elsewhere ... unfortunately the generic (ab)use of 'rip off' has dumbed this phrase down to the point that it is seen as a meaningless vent.

No proof really that having an 0870 makes it cheaper. For example, where I'm working now (government authority) has a database that is maintained by a company. This company now charges a couple of thousand pound for tech support queries if any arise, or I assume for any bug fixes/amendments. The chances of them having to do any bug fixes/amendments are slim and get slimer as time goes on and the database does everything that is required. Yet, this company has an 0870 number for tech support.

Do you really believe that despite receiving a couple of thousand pounds from where I work (and yet more money from other government authorities that also use the database) for the odd amendment, etc that they should also utilise an 0870 as well? Bear in mind that I know this company is small and only one person ever looks after this specific database and makes amendments/bug fixes, etc so therefore the couple of thousand pound received from the several government authorities that also utilise the database must pay for his wages alone but yet they utilise an 0870 to receive further revenue?!

I will be honest and say that if there is a paid for maintenance agreement then I think that an 0870 number is a bit OTT. However maybe your authority has negotiated the use of an 0870 number because then the annual maintenance would be £2000 instead of £2500 ... with an 0870 you may be actually saving money ... you don't know if that is true or not, nor do I.

However in the bigger picture, given the amount of money government authorities waste and fritter away on non -essentials and non-jobs I would be inclined to think that the cost of an 0870 number would not even make a blip in any of their budgets (probably less than paper clips). Using 0870 in a governmental comparison does highlight where the real rip-off is ... by getting rid of 0870 will shave a few pence of here and there, however by getting rid of all the deadwood in government non-jobs would save millions (so should we waste time on 0870 or look at the real problem).

This company only uses an 0870 so they can earn 'extra' revenue and increase their profit margin more without their customers knowing. Obviously, this 'extra' revenue and therefore increase in their profit margin is ultimately paid for by tax payers like you and I.

"Without knowing"? They do know, they are using an 0870 number? Also as an employee do you spend as much time and effort quesitoning the wasteage of paper clips, pencils and erasers? I also think that you are vastly over stating the 'increase in profit margin' ... for a skilled tech support person one would have to be thinking about £1+ per minute before it would have any impact on profit margin .. and that is assuming they are 100% utilised .. however you claim the calls are few and far between .. maybe you would prefer your government authority to spend the equivalent of £45,000 per annum employing someone in yet another non-job to sit at a desk reading a paper just in case someone decides they have a problem (0870 in this scenario is peanuts). Alternatively they could consider a consultant on £500-900 per day each time there is a problem?

Unless you put the costs into context you wil never know if they are good or bad value. Have you tried comparing the maintenance costs with overall running costs ... is it a critical system, how would your office cope if tech support said 'Oh, I will be out on Thursday fortnight to fix it'.

This is why 0870 isn't just used for tech support, etc but used for sales, general enquiries, etc.

As I have said, I think it is wrong to use it for sales but I will 100% back any company using it for support if at least some of the support costs are removed from the base price ... I KNOW that 0870 is having an effect on the end product pricing in some instances (obviously I can not vouch for all, but at least now with this knowledge you can never honestly claim that it does NOT have any effect).

Ivan

bbb_uk

IvanOpinion wrote: »

Just went through my phone bill .. the most expensive 0870 number was 7p per minute ... compared to £1.50 to phone some of these reality shows (which fortunately there were none on my phone bill because if there had have been DW would have received a good kicking for being so stupid).

I meant it is likely cheaper overall (for the entire call taking into consideration the time spent in a queue). The average call when you're actually physically talking to a customer services or where ever must only be a few minutes (most likely less than 5min) but most of the time on the phone can be queue. I'm not blaming anyone for having long queues - just saying that ringing a 0870 at 7p/min compared to a 09x costing 10p/min then probably on average its cheaper to ring the 09x because you only get charged when you get to speak to a human and not in the queue beforehand.

I have worked in several marketing departments, and often (but not always) projections do take into account customer contact. I have personally worked on systems that deliberately discourage people from contacting call centres (because that costs the company money). The evidence is plainly there for people to see ... e.g. additional discounts for ordering online, discounts offered via broker sites, extra interest for telephone/no-contact banking etc.

I was referring to 0870 usage by companies. For companies with no call centres/tel help lines then there does exist real cheap deals like the 'no frills' Call18185, etc.

In my field, I do order online as it saves me going out to buy parts all the time when I can have them delivered. Most of the time, I do price comparisons to ensure I'm still getting the products cheap, etc and I can actually say that the real cheap ones don't all have 0870 but a lower rate 0845. However, it's really hard for anyone to say for certain because companies do subsidise some of their products from other products where they make more of a profit from.

Search the web . you will find 'Rip off' siotes for just about every country in the world ... people who use the 'rip off Britain' tag always seem to compare those things that are high priced and ignore the things that are cheaper ...

This is going off-topic but can you actually name things that is generally cheaper in the UK than other countries like the states? There may be a few things but I can't honestly think of any except we have the NHS.

I will be honest and say that if there is a paid for maintenance agreement then I think that an 0870 number is a bit OTT. However maybe your authority has negotiated the use of an 0870 number because then the annual maintenance would be £2000 instead of £2500 ... with an 0870 you may be actually saving money ... you don't know if that is true or not, nor do I.

They used to have an 0845 but moved to an 0870 and I know that where I work didn't know about 0870 as the company concerned changed it after contracts where in place. Where I work still have no idea about 0870 except that it's 'national' rate. Work I work, I briefly mentioned that the company used for the database was getting money from any calls they receive but was told that is not the case because it's only 'national rate' and that premium rate numbers are barred anyhow.

As I said as time goes on the company that designed and maintained the database will do less and less work which is normal. I agree that a maintance support has to continue to be paid just in case something major happens and/or they decide to have extra reports/stats (afterall stats are annoyingly needed in government authorities to provide details to central government). My point was that they had an 0870 despite being paid a couple of thousand pound from our authority and the many more authorities that, I assume, pay the same as us.

As I said earlier, the 0870 didn't exist at time the database was created and maintenance, etc contracts were drawn up.

However in the bigger picture, given the amount of money government authorities waste and fritter away on non -essentials and non-jobs I would be inclined to think that the cost of an 0870 number would not even make a blip in any of their budgets (probably less than paper clips).

Where I work everyone is stressed due to workload and many take work home of an evening and sometimes of the weekend. This is normal and I've never seen anyone bored. I have a relative who works in our local social security (now part of DWP) and she and many others are also stressed and have been off with stress this is despite central government saying they had too many people and not enough work hence why they cut a couple of thousands jobs when DWP merged with Inland Revenue. I have no idea where central government get these figures from or how they work it out. Now if they're talking about some people being too highly paid then I can't comment on that as obviously very few people discuss how much they're getting paid, the higher up they are. The normal/every day people on probably the basic wage though have no problems talking about how much they get paid.

I also think that you are vastly over stating the 'increase in profit margin' ... for a skilled tech support person one would have to be thinking about £1+ per minute before it would have any impact on profit margin .. and that is assuming they are 100% utilised

FoI requests have revealed that certain government authorities receive hundreds of thousands pounds (near 500 thousand I think one government authority revealed) from calls to their 0870 so yes I can imagine that companies like Sky, etc that utilise nothing but 0870 must make a lot more than that but of course no company is likely to mention how much they receive from calls to their 087x as it is obviously bad publicity especially as they don't like consumers knowing that their use of an 0870 is earning them money from the call.

Unless you put the costs into context you wil never know if they are good or bad value. Have you tried comparing the maintenance costs with overall running costs ... is it a critical system, how would your office cope if tech support said 'Oh, I will be out on Thursday fortnight to fix it'.

I answered this one earlier on. I have no problem and understand that a maintenance contract is necessary - my point is that the company concerned is receiving money from the calls as well as the maintenance contract. If this company switched to an 09x costing 7p/min (same cost as as their 0870) I assure you that the powers that be would question why the company had a premium rate number and receiving money from the maintenance contracts. My point is that they are using an 0870 not only for it's benefits but mostly for the money they can receive from the call without their customers being aware of it.

As I have said, I think it is wrong to use it for sales but I will 100% back any company using it for support if at least some of the support costs are removed from the base price ... I KNOW that 0870 is having an effect on the end product pricing in some instances (obviously I can not vouch for all, but at least now with this knowledge you can never honestly claim that it does NOT have any effect).

I state again I don't believe that it would make a difference to the cost if any company concerned never had the use of stealth premium rate numbers. For example, say 084/087 never existed so companies only had geographical or a recognised premium rate 09x numbers, I don't believe it would make a difference unless they did have a £1 premium rate number but of course most companies wouldn't take this route because it means that their customers know they are being called on a premium rate number.

My point remains the same and that is that these numbers are most likely used to earn revenue without their customers (this can be either businesses or ordinary consumers) knowing and this is why they are popular. If the use of these numbers was for genuine reasons and not to make a profit from the call just because they can without most consumers being aware of it, then why are these numbers so popular for services other than tech support, etc - things like sales or just to call the local CPW to see if they have such a phone in stock?

Again, it's because they can get away with receiving money without customers being aware of it and some even thinking it's 'national rate'.

Basically, it has pretty-much become the 'norm' to have an 084x/087x (mostly 0870) regardless for it's use - whether it be c/s, tech support, sales, etc.

I have a question for you! Do you believe that if 084x/087x was never known as 'local/national' rate and instead ALL customers (businesses/consumers, etc) were aware that such calls to 084x/087x were in fact premium rate (as they technically are), do you believe that the use of 084x/087x would be as high as it is now?