The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote: »

My point remains the same and that is that these numbers are most likely used to earn revenue without their customers (this can be either businesses or ordinary consumers) knowing and this is why they are popular.

Once again I wouldn't seek to defend the usage of 0870. I work for a phone company and our margin is the same on 0800, 0845 and indeed geo numbers accessing similar intelligent network type services (indeed our margin is actually higher on the latter as there's not so many providers for this).

However I must pull you up on your choice of words for the above paragraph. To restate, anyone who understands the economics of staffing callcentres will tell you that you do not "earn revenue" on a 5ppm sharing arrangement. The 5ppm will offset the cost of providing the service, but it will not by any stretch of the imagination fund it and leave a profit. To do that, the average wait time would need to be approx 500 minutes for a UK seat, although probably less for an Indian subcontinent one. The opponents of 0870 have a valid argument as to whether call costs should be part funding the person who answers the phone (especially for things relating to government eg NHS)...but putting forward a case that companies profit from the use of 0870 does the argument a dis-service.

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote: »

However I must pull you up on your choice of words for the above paragraph. To restate, anyone who understands the economics of staffing callcentres will tell you that you do not "earn revenue" on a 5ppm sharing arrangement. The 5ppm will offset the cost of providing the service, but it will not by any stretch of the imagination fund it and leave a profit.

I understand that the money received may be used to offset the cost of providing a call centre but I do stand by my statement of "earn revenue". I used this term because by definition they do earn money from the call. Whether this is ploughed back into a call centre or not is another thing. A small company that isn't likely to have a call centre of anykind therefore they don't really need to offset the cost of a call centre.

Looking at the bigger picture of a big call centre like say Sky, then I would agree that the 0870 is used to offset the costs of providing a call centre but at the same time it could easily be said that this offset has saved Sky money so therefore increased their profits. (if that makes sense )

For example look at this page and you'll see that by definition I'm correct.

IvanOpinion

Thanks for the detailed reply but just picking up on a couple of your points (there are others I would pick up on but they are a bit oT so will no bother). Apologies if you disagree with the way I have editted your comments (there is no deliberate attempt to move things out of context).

bbb_uk wrote: »

I meant it is likely cheaper overall (for the entire call taking into consideration the time spent in a queue).

Quite possibly, but yet some people gladly fork out £1.50 or more for a 1 minute phone call while complaining about being on hold for 10 minutes on a 5-7p per minute phone number. It is all a case of perspective ... some people happily fork out hundreds for desiner clothes that cost pence to make, some people fork out thousands every year on tobacco, alchohol and tattoos ... my point is that 0870 is a generally a very very small part of peoples income, and the more homework you do the less of a part it plays. If people are looking to make savings then 0870 may shave a few pence but there are often much bigger and more relevant wasteages of money.

As I have said before the first minute of an 0870 call should be free and should provide you with an estimated waiting time, your position in the queue and cost per minute .. each person can then make a decision.

As I said earlier, the 0870 didn't exist at time the database was created and maintenance, etc contracts were drawn up.

It is a change of contract therefore somebody somewhere would have had to agree to it ... now if they did not know what the implications were before agreeing to it then that can be put down to crass incompetence.

Where I work everyone is stressed due to workload and many take work home of an evening and sometimes of the weekend.

Where I work the last batch of recruits (4) that came in from the public sector all resigned within 3 months because they could not handle the workload (absolutely no time management skills, and they also claimed that they put in extra hours in their previous job).

FoI requests have revealed that certain government authorities receive hundreds of thousands pounds (near 500 thousand I think one government authority revealed) from calls to their 0870 so yes I can imagine that companies like Sky, etc that utilise nothing but 0870 must make a lot more than that but of course no company is likely to mention how much they receive from calls to their 087x as it is obviously bad publicity especially as they don't like consumers knowing that their use of an 0870 is earning them money from the call.
:[edit out]:
My point is that they are using an 0870 not only for it's benefits but mostly for the money they can receive from the call without their customers being aware of it.

Now there is a massive difference between 'revenue' and 'profit' (espeically for government departments). Remember though that minimum wage requires a charge in excess of 10p per minute (and that is before you have paid for all the overheads) .. and many call centres are NOT minimum wage. I agree they are used to earn 'revenue' but, knowing how much the equipment, maintenance and staff costs are, I am not convinced that there are vast amounts of profit in it.

Do you think companies should supply their services for free? They should impart the kowledge they have spent years and money accruing for no cost?

I have a question for you! Do you believe that if 084x/087x was never known as 'local/national' rate and instead ALL customers (businesses/consumers, etc) were aware that such calls to 084x/087x were in fact premium rate (as they technically are), do you believe that the use of 084x/087x would be as high as it is now?

In some cases 'yes' in other cases 'no'. It's a little bit different but PatientLine charges 50p per minute and despite running up a phone bill of over £40 on it I do not begrudge a single penny (even though I think that is a rip-off ... since most people could use mobile phones instead ... and don't give me the old 'but mobile phones could interfere with the medical equipment' .. if so then why does every doctor have one strapped to their belt or their ear?).

Again people have a choice, they could maybe sit down and read the literature and instructions that they have been supplied with, they could ask their neighbours or they can take the lazy way out and phone somebody. I have worked in call centres (technical not operational) and a vast majority of calls are not relevant, they just waste the operators time and cause queues to build up (as well as wasting loads of money for the company .. which is why call centre operations are often outsourced). People are lazy and look for the easy option, it is easier to get on the phone and have a nanny hold your hand rtaher than to read the instructions. Also remember one could send a letter ... but that would also cost about £2.50 (or 25-30 minutes to a call centre)? Or one could send an emai (but then the response may not be for a couple of days). There are alternatives .. it is laziness and a 'now' society that drive such decision.

Anybody who does not know that 0870 incurs a premium charge is, in my opinion, basically too stupid to be allowed near a phone. I have seen so much literature, news stories, bulletin board information etc. about it that anybody who does not appreciate the difference must have their head buried in the sand. I agree though that thre are many like it, however even with the knowledge of this, I believe those that already take the easy way out will continue to do so.

So until there is a petition that differentiates between the likes of sales lines and the likes of support lines I can not sign any petition ... because ultimately everybody will end up paying more (a bit like what is happening in this 'unfair bank charges' fiasco), or people will have nowhere to turn for help if they really need it (sorry sir our engineer is busy but he will phone you back in a couple of weeks).

Ivan

theloft

I think you two should call it a score draw. Obviously both bbb_uk and Ivan Opinion are entrenched in their views and both make many good points. The fact remains that although the cost may be small in the overall scheme of things, it is the deceitful and underhanded way that companies use the 0870 number system that rankles. If they were open and transparent about the costs, maybe it would not get people's hackles up, me for one.

IvanOpinion

theloft wrote: »

If they were open and transparent about the costs, maybe it would not get people's hackles up, me for one.

I think that is probably something bbb_uk and I agree on

ivan

Heinz

theloft wrote: »

I think you two should call it a score draw.

But the extra time and penalties went on a bit, didn't they!

bbb_uk

Heinz wrote: »

But the extra time and penalties went on a bit, didn't they!

Well it was a hard match as we both had equally good comments/responses :rotfl:

theloft wrote: »

If they were open and transparent about the costs, maybe it would not get people's hackles up, me for one.[/COLOR]

I agree with Ivan Opinion on this

This could go on forever but just to settle a few things mentioned:

IvanOpinion wrote: »

Quite possibly, but yet some people gladly fork out £1.50 or more for a 1 minute phone call while complaining about being on hold for 10 minutes on a 5-7p per minute phone number.

That is true except you're forgetting that these numbers are called nowhere near as much as 08x numbers and that consumers know beforehand that they are ringing a premium rate number so therefore consumer detriment is mostly likely (and does) happen on 08x numbers moreso than 09x numbers.

some people happily fork out hundreds for desiner clothes that cost pence to make, some people fork out thousands every year on tobacco, alchohol and tattoos ... my point is that 0870 is a generally a very very small part of peoples income..

True

As I have said before the first minute of an 0870 call should be free and should provide you with an estimated waiting time, your position in the queue and cost per minute .. each person can then make a decision.

TBH, I'd be happy with a compromise that local/national rate lies is stopped and that it becomes public knowledge that 08x can earn the company/gov dept called money. That way consumers can make a fully informed decision before they even do business with a specific company that utilises these numbers like Sky, Argos, etc.

It is a change of contract therefore somebody somewhere would have had to agree to it ...

It depends on whether within the contract they factored in calls on 0845 (as it was beforehand) or their new 0870.

now if they did not know what the implications were before agreeing to it then that can be put down to crass incompetence.

I agree with this but in all fairness they still believe the 084x/087x local/national lies. I've mentioned it once and it went in one ear and out the other and just got the usual it's national rate and premium rate numbers are blocked.

Even if I did manage to get someone to look into it, there is a very good chance that they would look at the website for any of the telecom providers and 99% of the time, this would just reinforce the 084x/087x lie. Even if they rung the likes of BT up and spoke with c/s, I believe the likelyhood of the c/s representative saying that 0870 is national rate is extremely high just basically due to the sheer number of people who believe this. Why would they think otherwise when most telecom providers despite knowing it's a lie still maintain this lie simply because it helps the telecom providers to sell these numbers.

Do you think companies should supply their services for free? They should impart the kowledge they have spent years and money accruing for no cost?

No, I don't. I like to think I'm a fair/reasonable person and I don't expect freephone numbers at all for companies because the cost of freephone numbers in this country can be expensive, so as a compromise a geographical number or at the very least an 0845 providing they do need to take advantage of any features offered by NGNs. I would however expect a fair price and definitely not hiding behind stealth premium rate numbers like 087x therefore if they need the revenue from these numbers then they should choose 09x numbers specifically designed for the revenue as that way consumers know they are ringing a premium rate number.

Again people have a choice, they could maybe sit down and read the literature and instructions that they have been supplied with, they could ask their neighbours or they can take the lazy way out and phone somebody. I have worked in call centres (technical not operational) and a vast majority of calls are not relevant, they just waste the operators time and cause queues to build up

I agree but say for example everyone does stop calling then call centre staff (and I have also been one in many previous jobs on tech support) then eventually the company would say they have a surplus of staff and cut the staff down to increase their profits more.

it is easier to get on the phone and have a nanny hold your hand rtaher than to read the instructions. Also remember one could send a letter ... but that would also cost about £2.50 (or 25-30 minutes to a call centre)? Or one could send an emai (but then the response may not be for a couple of days).

I agree there are alternatives and I do use email where possible. However, it has been known that emails and letters are ignored by companies claiming they never received them (which in the case of email is unlikely due to having a bounced back email). Also remember that some things are too complicated to put in an email/letter. Also things like companies only ever quickly scanning emails/letter and only responding to maybe one or some of your queries but not others. Or maybe if you know that if you sent an email/letter you could end up spending ages firing emails/letters back and forth.

In some cases the above has personally happened to me and this is why a phone call is necessary not that your guaranteed results like but I do agree that people make phone calls without reading manuals, etc and for other things.

Anybody who does not know that 0870 incurs a premium charge is, in my opinion, basically too stupid to be allowed near a phone. I have seen so much literature, news stories, bulletin board information etc. about it that anybody who does not appreciate the difference must have their head buried in the sand.

Not everyone may have seen it and for those that have may now be confused because they'll read that and then turn over the page and see something that has an 084x/087x and it state local/national rate or even check the website of their telephone provider. BT only in last month or two stopped using local/national in their bills next to calls to 0845/0870. I can imagine many other telephone providers still state local/national rate in their bills. With all this conflicting statements it would obviously be confusing.

Ofcom have done pretty much nothing through all of this and to date have done nothing over the misleading lies that many of the communication providers state about 084x/087x numbers.

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote: »

That is true except you're forgetting that these numbers are called nowhere near as much as 08x numbers and that consumers know beforehand that they are ringing a premium rate number so therefore consumer detriment is mostly likely (and does) happen on 08x numbers moreso than 09x numbers.

You're quite right about the 2nd bit (current controversy about quiz phone ins excepted). On the 1st (0870 vs 09 usage), I haven't got the stats to hand but you might well be surprised. Although demographics mean such things are increasingly done via text, events like the X-factor final are still the ones that put the UK telecoms network under most pressure. What is true is the 09 usage is more concentrated to sections of the population whereas calling 08 numbers is something that hits most of us.

I guess I have no issues with campaigns like saynoto0870, and similarly I agree that pricing should be more transparent. What I'm uncomfortable with - from an overall economy perspective - is the approach being taken by Ofcom. Defacto, they're banning revenue share on 0870 (the "you can continue as is so long as you put an announcement on" is a red herring as the telecoms companies serving the bulk of customers don't have the technology to do so), and saying to the holders of such numbers that they either change their business model or change their number. My own experience is that the bulk of 0870 numbers will migrate onto 0871 and 0844...revenue share won't end. This migration will have a cost, and you can be sure that in one form or another that'll end up at the consumer. The benefit will be that the 0844/0871 numbers will be declared/transparent as NOT being national rate. However, it strikes me that exactly the same result could have been achieved by mandating that advertisers of 0870 numbers put the price underneath them, without having the side effect of literally millions of numbers having to change, at inordinate cost to you and I. I don't know, perhaps it's me...

Heinz

bunking_off wrote: »

However, it strikes me that exactly the same result could have been achieved by mandating that advertisers of 0870 numbers put the price underneath them, without having the side effect of literally millions of numbers having to change, at inordinate cost to you and I.

Or, as I and many others suggested when we responded to the 'consultation', by making all revenue-sharing move to the 09 range.

Instant transparency - 09 = costs more.

IvanOpinion

bbb_uk wrote: »

Well it was a hard match as we both had equally good comments/responses :rotfl:

I think that probably sums it up best Both of us are looking to ensure the best deal for the consumer but are apporaching it from different angles.

Ivan