The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

bbb_uk

IvanOpinion wrote: »

I want the base price of my product to be as low as possible (after all I am a good money saver) therefore I do not wnat them to add on an amount just in case I need support. So give me the low price and let all those people who need extra help, change their minds, can not be bothered to read the manual etc. an 0870 number whereby they can pay for the additional support and help they require.

I agree with that but as Heinz points out, these numbers are used to earn money without the consumer knowing about it.

Also, as Heinz points out, some firms that operate in the UK and states, all use freephone in the states but 0870 in the UK. A perfect example is BA. They claim their 0870 number is to offset the cost of providing a UK call centre (again this would be true) but yet they operate freephone numbers in the states. Does this mean that BA don't operate call centres in the states then? No, the main reason is that it has become common place for 084x/087x numbers in the UK and because they are still being advertised as local/national rate, many consumers aren't aware of the cost but more importingly that the company they ring is making money from the call.

Most companies in the states operate freephone but here we operate 087x which is fine except that products/services supplied in the states is generally always cheaper than over here in the UK anyhow.

That's why so many companies use 0870 for everything whether its sales, general enquiries or tech support. Simply because they can get away with it.

Why does Sky, BA, Argos, CPW use 0870 for all their numbers? Especially Argos and CPW, they even use this for contacting their stores! Say I want to ring a CPW store and ask them have they got such a PAYG phone in stock to save my trasping all the way to store to find they haven't.

Many companies that operate 0870 say it's because they have lower product/service prices but yet if you did a compartive search, I've found that many of the times there are other companies that sell the product/service cheaper and don't operate 0870.

Every year, these firms increase (where applicable) their prices, etc so I have yet to see any company that sells their product/services cheaper because they use an 0870 number but beforehand they sold their products/services for more money when they had a geographical number.

I always say on SayNo that there are legitimate reasons for 08x numbers but all I ask for is that the misleading lies about the calls being local/national rate is stopped and that ALL consumers know the cost of the call beforehand (remember they can cost upto 40p/min from mobile networks) and that the company they are ringing is most likely making money from the call.

In other words, they are STEALTH premium rate numbers albeit lower amounts compared to 09x numbers.

What is wrong with a consumer being fully aware of the costs involved and that the company they are ringing is likely to be making money?

Most of the time, consumers don't find this out until after they've spent 30/40mins on the call and its costs a lot of money.

kenshaz

Excellent response dual standards for the UK and the States . We are the mugs and guess what goods and products are cheaper in the States .Shoots down the theory that only those who do not understand the product and need help via the 0870 number,and those who do will benefit from reduced costs. Exactly the same theory that those who state that we should not reclaim bank charges because the banks will put up costs for those who never go in the red.

I resent the fact that multi nationals feel that we're a different consumer in the UK,and we should have to pay revenue to contact them .

New cars used to be more expensive in the UK for exactly the same reason ,they believe that we will tolerate the higher prices ,the British nation always polite and never complain.

kenshaz

IvanOpinion wrote: »

Unfortunately I can not sign the petition because it is too generic and has not been thought through. I would sign it if it related to sales lines only but believe that 0870 is a good choice for support and enquiry lines.

I want the base price of my product to be as low as possible (after all I am a good money saver) therefore I do not wnat them to add on an amount just in case I need support. So give me the low price and let all those people who need extra help, change their minds, can not be bothered to read the manual etc. an 0870 number whereby they can pay for the additional support and help they require.

Ivan

Sorry but it does not stack,I always get better service when the cruise ship has a majority of Americans on board because they demand higher standards,I am using that analogy because of your cruising expertise.(SHIPS)
I hope that I have persuaded you to sign.

DonnyDave

IvanOpinion obviously does not mind paying 7p/min or more to stay on hold. Whereas a 09 premium number is not allowed to queue calls. A crucial difference that can make 0870 more profitable than 09 numbers.

scheming_gypsy

stamford wrote: »

Can you explain this a bit further ?

As far as I'm aware every 0845/0870 number has to hang off a normal area specific number. Look on your credit card statement and there's a good chance it will say something like "from overseas dial 0044-1268-223223", call this number from the UK and you can use your BT unlimited or mobile call package.

I can indeed. I work in Telecoms for an insurance number where we deal with third party companies taking claims calls for them.
They issue to number and point it the geographical number I set up. As far as i'm aware all the numbers my company use are 0800 but some of the clients use 0845 and some used an 0870 number.
These clients then print out their documents and send them to the customers, as with everything else relationships break down and people move their business elsewhere; cheap rates, bad service etc. Now doing it the way it currently works the client can end their relationship with company A and take it to company B. All that changes is the geographical number that the 08** number points to and the customer isn't aware of any change.

If you take away that 08** number and issue the geographical number you end up with numerous problems. The business relationship ends and the client is now using company B as their contact but company B doesn't own the original number as it's part of a pool of numbers owned by company A.
This means that 1000's of policy holders have a contact number that is of no use. The client then has to send out more paperwork to the customers informing them of a number change whilst relying on the customer to receive this and update their documentation. If a customer doesn't receive this and need to make a claim (or whatever the situation is) they have a dead number or a number that routes to a business that no longer deals with that client.

Also as well as making money companies have to produce reports, number or calls taken, Percentage of calls answered, calls answered within a set service level etc. To report efficiently and historically they don't want to keep changing the phone number they report on.
In one situation at our place we were receiving hundreds of calls one 1 claims line where there was nobody there. We traced this number back to a company with the silent dialing sales technique. Registering with TPS would have no effect as these calls were coming through a client that transferred their out of hours calls to us so it was up to them to register with the TPS and stop these calls. As this was effecting our call stats, taking up agents time where they could be taking real calls I had to put a procedure into place where it would cut out the calls and also still be able to report on calls. The only way to do this was to give our clients a new delivery number (01) where the customer had to press 1 to continue with the call.

DonnyDave

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

I can indeed. I work in Telecoms for an insurance number where we deal with third party companies taking claims calls for them.
They issue to number and point it the geographical number I set up. As far as i'm aware all the numbers my company use are 0800 but some of the clients use 0845 and some used an 0870 number.

That's all well and good but does not justify the anti-competitive charging arrangements which is the reason for the petition and the Say no to 0870 website.

It does not justify companies like yours receiving either direct financial payments and/or telephone routing (NTS) and statistics paid for, unknowingly by the caller on a per minute basis. If you want that, then you should pay it and not the caller!

scheming_gypsy

i didn't say it did justify anything. what i did say is that it's not always possible to issue a geographical number as the geographical number doesn't always stay the same.

bunking_off

Heinz wrote: »

BTW, how is it that firms in the USA (including many UK firms with offices there) use 1800 numbers?

It's quite simple really, "because they've no choice".

In the UK, freephone, local rate and national rate numbers were introduced pretty much simultaneously (as was, 0800, 0345 and 0990...and before anyone chips in at the time they did align with the relevant local/national tariffs - what's happened in the meantime is that normal geographic tariffs have fallen while the rates on 0845/0870 (as they've now become) stayed steady). UK companies thus had a choice of the type of service they wished to provide their customers...at launch they could choose to contribute the full cost of the call (0800), part of the cost (0345) or none of the cost (0990). As telephone network costs have fallen and competition has increased, these dynamics have changed to being whether companies want to contribute towards the call (0800), be neutral (0845) or get a small revenue share (0870). Without wishing to get into the debate on rights and wrongs of 0870, I would comment that a 5p/min revenue is a drop in the ocean against the cost of staffing a seat in a callcentre...£3/hr versus £20-30/hr for a UK-based seat.

In the USA, things developed differently. The telecoms companies there launched their 1-800 service without chargeable equivalents. The US population got used to not paying for calls to companies, and it's now a bit like the internet...every company would dearly love not to give these things away free, but the horse has already bolted so there's no way of making it happen.

Drawing comparisons internationally can be a dangerous game. A lot of the reason 1-800's like it is (or rather why, as far as I know, they don't have 0870 equivalents) relates back to what could and couldn't be negotiated around variable inter-operator termination rates at the time. A similar side-effect of this is that if you have a mobile in the USA, the caller doesn't get charged a premium like they do in the UK and the extra cost of inbound calls come out of your minutes allowance...I'm sure that wouldn't go down well over here...

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote: »

Without wishing to get into the debate on rights and wrongs of 0870, I would comment that a 5p/min revenue is a drop in the ocean against the cost of staffing a seat in a callcentre...£3/hr versus £20-30/hr for a UK-based seat.

As it's been mentioned earlier, these numbers whilst they may have legitimate benefits (and I admit they do), most companies are using them (more so on 087x) not because of the legitimate benefits but because they can get away with earning money from consumers ringing them without, in most cases, the consumer knowing and they mostly do this on pretence that the cost of the call is local/national which haven't been like that for more than 2 years now (I think).

I've mentioned this before but all I ask for is that the local/national lies stop and that consumers are made aware that when they ring these numbers in most cases the company they ring is making money (even whilst they are held in a queue for 20+ minutes)!

What is wrong with a more upfront approach to these numbers? That way consumers would know beforehand that the company they are calling is most likely making money from the call and consumers can then make a more informed decision about whether or not to ring or do business with company.

The problem is that companies and CPs (most anyhow) still hide behind the local/national lie and therefore so do their customers (businesses, etc). They do this because they can and do get away with it.

In the USA, things developed differently. The telecoms companies there launched their 1-800 service without chargeable equivalents. The US population got used to not paying for calls to companies, and it's now a bit like the internet...every company would dearly love not to give these things away free, but the horse has already bolted so there's no way of making it happen.

My point exactly except over in the UK it's become the "standard" to have an 0870 (more so than 0845). Why wouldn't it when it apparently only 'national' rate from (and I quote from some CPs websites) anywhere in the country and you can earn money whilst consumers ring you without them even knowing that you are earning money.

This is why these numbers are basically stealth premium rate numbers and this why they are very popular.

DonnyDave

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

i didn't say it did justify anything. what i did say is that it's not always possible to issue a geographical number as the geographical number doesn't always stay the same.

But the purpose of providing a geographical number is not because we do not like the technology of NTS. It is because of the charging arrangements. There were over 1000 responses to Ofcom's consultation, NTS: A way forward, many of which were from consumers. Any companies that disagree with the charging arrangements but require the benefits of NTS should have responded stating that. Not responding is like not voting in an election and then complaining about decisions made by elected representatives.

So which is the response from your company?

bunking_off wrote: »

In the UK, freephone, local rate and national rate numbers were introduced pretty much simultaneously (as was, 0800, 0345 and 0990...and before anyone chips in at the time they did align with the relevant local/national tariffs - what's happened in the meantime is that normal geographic tariffs have fallen while the rates on 0845/0870 (as they've now become) stayed steady). …

So no one saw it coming? :rolleyes:

This is such a convenient excuse. The framework for these numbers should have allowed them to stay in line with local/national numbers from the outset.

All I ask for is to be able to telephone companies at geographical rates. The calls terminate on landlines, so that should be the call charge. Anything more than that is a premium. Simple.

So the new 03 numbers are what we have been waiting for. Current 084/087 numbers are covert premium rate.