The depressively optimistic moneysaving thread

Lita_Ford

absolutebounder wrote: »

. Whilst I agree with you in the follow doctors advice bit it is interesting to note that in that survey the ones who just did as they were told by the doc didnt come top of the survival rates and actually were in the bottom two.

So what was the order I wouldnt have expected following docs orders to be at the bottom How does this relate to depression. I have 2 friends with cancer and some in various stages of depression so I would like to know how they can be helped by this.

beachbeth

absolutebounder wrote: »

So are you feeling unloved or unappreciated by family and friends?

My daughters, for example, love me but, of course, they expect me here to do the washing, cooking etc. It seems that every human being, no matter how much they love you, expect something of you. Dogs aren't like this. Even though they have got used to me feeding them at the same time each day, they would still greet me with great excitement and happiness should I stop feeding them! It is a much more unconditional love and they don't care what I look like or if Im in a bad mood - they're always there to play or sleep or whatever I want to do.

I know this is sexist but I think more is expected of women than of men. We are expected to be the homekeepers and the child carers (although I know this isn't always the case). If a woman does something unfeeling or uncaring it gets noticed much more than if a man does it.

absolutebounder

Lita_Ford wrote: »

So what was the order I wouldnt have expected following docs orders to be at the bottom How does this relate to depression. I have 2 friends with cancer and some in various stages of depression so I would like to know how they can be helped by this.

Those who decided to fight it with all means possible and those who denied it had substantialy better life expectancy rates at 5 yrs than those who accepted it and those who went to pieces.
This is one example of the body mind connection which i think is not always to well known by people with a lot of illness including depression and the practicioners who treat it. The concentration by professionals seems to be on areas involved in money. Meds of course make a lot of money for the manufacturers and counselling is long winded and expensive as is CBT. Not saying they dont work but it has been shown that sugar coated pills work in many circumstances. Anything to do with placebo effect is your mind at work. i believe if people are shown how to utilise the resources they have hidden away in their mind they can make great improvements. I also guess hat some on this thread have found this out one way or another, maybe by accident it doesnt matter. What matters is sharing ideas to helppeople have as enjoyable life as possible.
Many people say they hate their depression but seem to do relatively little about it. I also realise that a few people are trapped in an environment that prevents them escaping so Im not talking about them but the people who could that dont seem to want to despite saying how much they hate it.
Remember its your life and depression is also yours. It doesnt belong to someone else and so ultimately it is you who has to make the necessary changes if you want to have a meaningful and happy life.

beachbeth

absolutebounder wrote: »

Not saying they dont work but it has been shown that sugar coated pills work in many circumstances. Anything to do with placebo effect is your mind at work. i believe if people are shown how to utilise the resources they have hidden away in their mind they can make great improvements.

My BIL suffers with depression and takes ADs. When he stops taking them everybody notices. He himself is the last to notice. He tries to come off them by taking them every other day and then stopping altogether and I, for one, notice straight away how irritable he is and so do his family. The people at work asked him the last time he stopped taking them "whats wrong, Peter?" (not his actual name!) because they could see he was getting in a state. They don't know about his depression, they could just see something was wrong. He started taking them again and immediately became a different, relaxed person. Its not all in the mind either because he quite often forgets to take them on holiday and doesn't realise until his wife tells him off because she's noticed his mood.

So you can't tell me that a sugar coated pill would do the same thing as an AD, especially as you haven't suffered from depression yourself and taken ADs for this.

shazrobo

on holiday last week, i completely forgot to take my AD's 4 days in a row, i was feeling lower and lower each day, and put it down to being lonely and stress, i took the kids away on my own, when the fourth day came, and i was actually feeling suicidal, which i have never felt being on holiday before, as its easier than being at home with them. any way the next day i looked at my tablets, as i take quite a few for other things too, and realised i had missed them, just missing four days unintentionally with out realising, made a lot of difference

shaz x

beachbeth

shazrobo wrote: »

on holiday last week, i completely forgot to take my AD's 4 days in a row, i was feeling lower and lower each day, and put it down to being lonely and stress, i took the kids away on my own, when the fourth day came, and i was actually feeling suicidal, which i have never felt being on holiday before, as its easier than being at home with them. any way the next day i looked at my tablets, as i take quite a few for other things too, and realised i had missed them, just missing four days unintentionally with out realising, made a lot of difference

shaz x

this is my experience and, obviously, my BIL's, as I said before. It definitely isn't in the mind because you haven't realised that you've forgotten to take them.

absolutebounder

beachbeth wrote: »

this is my experience and, obviously, my BIL's, as I said before. It definitely isn't in the mind because you haven't realised that you've forgotten to take them.

I think we have a bit of misunderstanding here.
Im not the least bit surprised that if someone stops taking chemicals that alter brain function various side effects effects will occur. It is just the same with many other drugs or chemical that the body gets used to. Now ADs are not designed for memory so it is also not surprising that you dont necesarily notice the change in your behaviousr and think whoops Ive forgotten my med. We could always tell when my dad was going to have a migraine by changes in his behavious but he had no idea whatsoever.
Anything you put in to your body in the form of an Ad the body can make more effectively. Depression studies have frequently shown that sufferers tend to have low levels of seratonin (note the word tend). Now man can make chemicals that increase the amount of seratonin or reduce the speed of its mbreak up and these are your ADs. However man is not as good as the body at doing it. ADs flood all the receptors whereas your brain neurotransmitters are highly specific to certain receptors. Every thought positive or negative creates neurotransmitters and so chemical balance is constantly changing.
Now when you saw your GP or psychiatrist did he check the balance of chemicals in your brain? Or did he just prescribe something.
The fact is all drugs have to be tested very rigorously these days and it costs one hell of a lot to get a drug passed. drugs are tested against a placebo In most trials whatever the drug being tested (even cancer) the placebo gets results. Against some drugs it does better than others. Recent surveys have pointed out that it came very close to matching the effective ness of ADs. To such a degree that people actually questioned the viability of ADs. Now that does not say the AD does not have an effect but when the placebo does so well I think we have to question why.
When people say its just the placebo effect what are they saying? They are giving strong evidence that belief (because the person doesnt know they got the placebo) can have amazing effects on the brain and the immune system. Scientists of course hate the placebo because they cant make money out of it and it can screw up all their hard work. I personaly would like to see tests where say a drug is given for a few months and then randomly swapped for a placebo without telling the patient. I wonder what would happen. would the brain compensate for it? i ask this because studies have shown that if a drug is given with a negative spin by the doc ie heres xyz try it but I dont expect it will work. Guess what. its effectiveness in trials drops.
A couple of questions I have is one why does it take so long for Ads to work and yet when they are stopped people say they notice the effect very quickly.
Why do talking therapies get results if the problem is purely chemical. Also bear in mind we dont even discuss some of the better talking therapies here or on the other thread
There you go something to think about

beachbeth

absolutebounder wrote: »

There you go something to think about

Yes, something to think about. I can understand that a placebo would work but that doesn't mean the AD's themselves aren't working and also working better than the placebo. I also think that after a time the placebo would no longer work but the AD's would continue working just the same.

absolutebounder

beachbeth wrote: »

Yes, something to think about. I can understand that a placebo would work but that doesn't mean the AD's themselves aren't working and also working better than the placebo. I also think that after a time the placebo would no longer work but the AD's would continue working just the same.

The surveys dont show that the ADs dont work though if you read the statistics they do have fairly low rates of effectiveness. but what Im trying to show is the fact the placebo works at all let alone nearly matches ADs is an indication that the brain can do interesting things. The trialls are usually done over quite a long time too as this is needed to shop up side efeects. Thinking about it I wonder whether those taking the placebo showed any side effects. The effectiveness of the placebo does no seem to drop off over time as far as I can see. But as I said I would like to see a trial where the pills were swapped aroung with out the patients knowing and then see what happened as this could give further insights into how we work but Im not aware of any such trials.
In a way as far as ADs are concerned the talking therapies are placebos and good long term effects have been reported. Medicine is a very fluid thing and views change. since coming on these threads my view of depression has changed and so has my deffinition. I have for some time called it an inability to cope with ones environment. However Im going to change it in the light of my visit to Africa to an inability to cope with ones expectations of an environment.
This is because I saw so many people who were not depressed but living in total squalor and poverty but knew no other environment so they had no different expectation from it and therefore coped perfectly well.
Try this link from psychiatri times

beachbeth

absolutebounder wrote: »

I have for some time called it an inability to cope with ones environment. However Im going to change it in the light of my visit to Africa to an inability to cope with ones expectations of an environment.
This is because I saw so many people who were not depressed but living in total squalor and poverty but knew no other environment so they had no different expectation from it and therefore coped perfectly well.
Try this link from psychiatri times

I still think depression is an inability to cope with ones environment. But by environment I mean the people around you rather than the physical home or area. Depression won't necessarily be caused by living in squalor, as you say - if you have a loving family unit then this will help you to cope with your conditions. If you have a dysfunctional family unit with parents who are moody and who continually move the goalposts as far as behaviour is concerned then it doesn't matter if you live in squalor or in a luxurious mansion - there is a big chance this will affect you in later life with depression or some other mental condition.

However, this sort of upbringing will cause depression in some people and not in others. I have a old friend who has 3 sisters and whose mum is one of the most awful people I have ever met. I can remember as a teenager how horrible she was to my friend and in front of me too. My friend hasn't got depression but 2 of her sisters have. I truly think my own upbringing caused my depression, although I wasn't abused or anything like that. Two of my brothers haven't got depression but one of my brothers is very borderline depressive and, of course, I suffer.