vicious dog

CFC

You've done the right thing mommyme. If you are a tenant of the council or a housing association you should put also put in a complaint to your local area housing office. If your neighbour is a tenant of either, you should complain.

Just to warn you that the 'proper channels' are usually a complete and utter waste of time, to be honest. I've had experience of them dealing with other matters.

You may have more luck if you are a tenant and they are a tenant of the same owners or they are tenants of council or housing association. Best is if your neighbours are tenants of the local council as you can keep repeating that they are responsible for the behaviour of their tenants and call them on the anti social behaviour hotline - many councils have one. Be ready to sound like a broken record, asserting your rights to the peaceful enjoyment of your property under the Human Rights Act. And then to put it into writing.

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel

CFC wrote: »

You've done the right thing mommyme. If you are a tenant of the council or a housing association you should put also put in a complaint to your local area housing office. If your neighbour is a tenant of either, you should complain.

Just to warn you that the 'proper channels' are usually a complete and utter waste of time, to be honest. I've had experience of them dealing with other matters.

You may have more luck if you are a tenant and they are a tenant of the same owners or they are tenants of council or housing association. Best is if your neighbours are tenants of the local council as you can keep repeating that they are responsible for the behaviour of their tenants and call them on the anti social behaviour hotline - many councils have one. Be ready to sound like a broken record, asserting your rights to the peaceful enjoyment of your property under the Human Rights Act. And then to put it into writing.

ive already told the housing assosiation but they wont get involved. Will wait to see what happens. My dads got a short temper so chances are police will turn up but possibly to arrest dad who will probably lose it sooner or later

adouglasmhor

mommyme wrote: »

ive already told the housing assosiation but they wont get involved. Will wait to see what happens. My dads got a short temper so chances are police will turn up but possibly to arrest dad who will probably lose it sooner or later

Put it in writing that they are being held responsible as well - they are liable as landlords. It's part of the paper trail too.

Notsosharp

Hi,

I don't know for sure but the dog could be classed as a nuisance because it's disturbing your enjoyment of your land? If so, you could get an injunction preventing them from letting it out or a court order that would force them to sort it out. If it's coming into your garden it might be trespass too.

I'm not sure if animals can themselves be classed as a nuisance but I'm fairly sure any noise etc can, especially as it's an ongoing thing.

MrsTinks

Point 1: You need a lot of raisins to poison a dog the size of a GSD/Rottie mix... This would be a SLOW and very painful process and wouldn't teach the dog anything because it wouldn't be able to connect the events even if it made it... And ofcourse anyone doing this on purpose could be prosecuted for animal cruelty and ironically for damage to property as dogs are seen as property in the eyes of the law....
Point 2: If it ever jumps into your garden again call 999 and tell them there is a known aggressive guard dog in your garden threatening you and your small toddler so you are unable to leave your house. They will more than likely send a police dog handler and an armed response unit. If they are unable to catch the dog safely, dart it or feel it is presenting an immediate danger to anyone they WILL shoot it and ask questions later... Any dog not under control is breaking the law.
Point 3: Keep complaining about it's behaviour to the council - and if the owners moan then put in a complaint about them too. You have every right to enjoy the property you live in in safety and without fear. Find out who has responcibility for the fence seperating the two properties. If rented the landlord should know. If it is your fence then you can put up anything you like and if they object to it then they have to put in a complaint. Removing it without permission is willful damage to your property.

As for what you can do if it breaks out of the house through the window then the answer is don't panic. If you run it's more likely to go after you. If this is a properly trained guard dog then chances are it is trained to keep people where they are and not allow them to leave or move. I would start carrying an umbrella (the long sort) with you when you go out as you can use it both as a stick and flip it open to create a "barrier" between you and the dog if need be. Yes it's flimsy but it's better than nothing.
You might also want to try carrying some dog treats in a pocket you can easily get to - it MIGHT distract it long enough to allow you to get indoors. Keep hassling your local community support officer (there is usually one assigned to particular areas - we have a village bobby here who also looks after other local villages - their contact details are usually posted in the village magazine with times of when they are available and what other numbers to call etc.

CFC

mommyme wrote: »

ive already told the housing assosiation but they wont get involved. Will wait to see what happens. My dads got a short temper so chances are police will turn up but possibly to arrest dad who will probably lose it sooner or later

You do need to put it in writing. You need to tell them that the dog is often to be found in your own garden and that the owners have warned you that it is dangerous. Ask them what action they intend to take about it.

You will need to be persistent because bureaucrats are trained to fob you off. However if you write they will need to formally respond. Is it a private housing association?

If it is generally noisy rather than purely barking when you leave or enter your house you should keep a noise diary and go to the Environmental Health with it. Life is easier once you have got an agency involved, and the EH is one of the easier ones to get to take some action.

These pieces of legislation may also be of interest to you. I suggest you consult the Citizens Advice Bureau.

Under the Town Police Clauses Act of 1847 it is an offence for any person in any street: to let an unmuzzled ferocious dog be at large so that it obstructs or annoys the residents or passengers in the street or puts them in danger; or to set on or to urge any dog to attack, worry or put in fear any person or animal. A dog will not be at large while it is held on a lead. The word 'street' here is given an extended meaning to include any road, square, court, alley, thoroughfare or public passage.
In the Metropolitan Police District a similar offence has been created by the Metropolitan Police Act of 1839.

Under the Dogs Act 1871, any person may make a complaint to a magistrates court that a dog is dangerous, or report the matter to the police. If the court is satisfied that a dog is dangerous and not kept under proper control, it may make an order for it to be controlled or destroyed.

A particular advantage of the 1871 Act is the fact that it applies everywhere, even in and around a private house which is why it is particularly appropriate for action on behalf of people such as postmen and women who are regularly at risk from dogs in front gardens.Section 3(5)(b) of the 1991 Act enables a court to make an order under the 1871 Act that a dog is in future muzzled, kept on a lead, tethered or is excluded from specified places. This is a flexible provision which can be used to deal with a number of nuisance complaints about dogs including circumstances where dogs in one back garden cause fear of risk or injury to neighbours in another. Section 3(6) enables the neutering of male dogs in addition to, or instead of, other measures or controls.


The Animals Act 1971 provides that the keeper of an animal is liable for any damage it causes, if he knows it was likely to cause such damage or injury unrestrained.

You mention that the animal is actually a 'guard dog' although now kept as a pet. The following information may be of use to you when discussing with the Housing Association and the police.

Section 1 of the Guard Dogs Act 1975 has entered into force. Section 1, relates to the control of guard dogs.
Section 1 states:

(1) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a person ('the handler') who is capable of controlling the dog is present on the premises and the dog is under the control of the handler at all times while it is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.
(2) The handler of a guard dog shall keep the dog under his control at all times while it is being used as a guard dog at any premises except:
(a) while another handler has control over the dog; or
(b) while the dog is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.
(3) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a notice containing a warning that a guard dog is present is clearly exhibited at each entrance to the premises.

I think it may be worth arguing that you have been clearly informed by your neighbour that this is a trained guard dog, and therefore should fall under these regulations.

My experience with bureaucracy has been that if you cast enough law at them, some will stick.

By the way Mrs Tine, the point of poisoning a dog isn't to teach it a lesson. It's to kill it in order to stop it being a danger. However I do believe it likely to be unfeasible to use raisins and chocolate, partly because of the size of the animal and partly because all these things tend to be a good deal less toxic than said. Plus you say that it is illegal - afraid you are wrong. There is no law preventing the OP putting raisins and chocolate, or even rat poison if necessary and obtainable legitimately if she has a rodent problem, in her own garden. I don't know why you are suggesting that it may be illegal, except possibly to discourage readers from doing it. There is nothing illegal about it, and quite frankly I'd rather be doing that than waving an umbrella at it to protect my child.

Mutter_2

lil_me wrote: »

One of my previous fosters was exactly the same, but that's only if you're not with her. She sounds/looks VERY agressive through a window, she does exactly the same as the dog you have described and when on a lead but she lives with a retired lady and her play mate every day is a 1 year old little boy. She's protective end of. She rolls around the floor with my children playing when we go to visit but goes crazy if she sees a teenager especially, she hates those when they are in the street! (But in her own home plays with children of all ages, 1-17)

How many people/children etc has this animal bitten that you have reported?

With guard dogs, my partners families guard dogs even attacked their owner when he decided to break into the garden after loosing his keys (drunk), but when not doing their job, my son used to ride on them basically, they were his toys almost when he was a baby/toddler playing with them.

Good grief.

~Chameleon~

lil_me wrote: »

One of my previous fosters was exactly the same, but that's only if you're not with her. She sounds/looks VERY agressive through a window, she does exactly the same as the dog you have described and when on a lead but she lives with a retired lady and her play mate every day is a 1 year old little boy. She's protective end of. She rolls around the floor with my children playing when we go to visit but goes crazy if she sees a teenager especially, she hates those when they are in the street! (But in her own home plays with children of all ages, 1-17)

How many people/children etc has this animal bitten that you have reported?

With guard dogs, my partners families guard dogs even attacked their owner when he decided to break into the garden after loosing his keys (drunk), but when not doing their job, my son used to ride on them basically, they were his toys almost when he was a baby/toddler playing with them.

I'm sorry but that is extremely irresponsible and if one of your children were injured by these dogs I'm afraid there would only be one person to blame.

You will no doubt respond with "but you don't know these dogs like I do blah, blah, blah ..." just like every other person I've heard say in their defence, usually followed with "but we never expected him/her to behave like that, he/she was always so good around the kids ..." after the dog has attacked them.

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel

MrsTine wrote: »

Point 1: You need a lot of raisins to poison a dog the size of a GSD/Rottie mix... This would be a SLOW and very painful process and wouldn't teach the dog anything because it wouldn't be able to connect the events even if it made it... And ofcourse anyone doing this on purpose could be prosecuted for animal cruelty and ironically for damage to property as dogs are seen as property in the eyes of the law....
Point 2: If it ever jumps into your garden again call 999 and tell them there is a known aggressive guard dog in your garden threatening you and your small toddler so you are unable to leave your house. They will more than likely send a police dog handler and an armed response unit. If they are unable to catch the dog safely, dart it or feel it is presenting an immediate danger to anyone they WILL shoot it and ask questions later... Any dog not under control is breaking the law.

See i may sound stupid but i really dont want anything to happen to the dog. It is doing what they have trained it to do. The neighbours used to own a pub and the dog was a pub guard dog - they didnt let it in the living quarters. It'd make a smashing guard dog for a factory or somewhere it can patrol but its guarding a 2 bed houe at the moment and obviously me walking up the path (we share one) it thinks im on his property. Can the police not shoot the owners? lol

CFC wrote: »

(1) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a person ('the handler') who is capable of controlling the dog is present on the premises and the dog is under the control of the handler at all times while it is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.

(2) The handler of a guard dog shall keep the dog under his control at all times while it is being used as a guard dog at any premises except:

(a) while another handler has control over the dog; or

(b) while the dog is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.

(3) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a notice containing a warning that a guard dog is present is clearly exhibited at each entrance to the premises.

The police did mention about the "warning signs" when i called up and ive had a look and there isn't any. Now i think they can (kind of) conrtol him when they are about, he tends to return from my yard back to theirs if they shout it (they just chose not to shout him until he has gone to the toilet tho!) but when they arent at home is when he is at the window snarling. They let him out over the weekend and he was snarling at my dad and jumped up against the fence, my dad picked up a shovel and shouted "a dogs main artery to the brain is in the side of the head, whats the chances of me missing it?" they called him back pretty quick then (which i was suprised at!)

The problem i have is that i can prove he has been on the back (camera ;-D ) but i cant really prove he is banging at the window and headbutting trying to get out, every way i think of they can use the response that he is getting wound up by me (such as filimg on mobile etc) We have been stopped by a number of people who have concerns tho but they wont voice them so i wonder if i can get a statement from them or something that i could pass o to the police so it isn't just my word?

Not seen him last 2 days but neighbours been in . . no doubt he will be there to greet me in the morning when i leave for work and when i return

oh and RE: the "you dont know what its like" bit - no i dont and i dont intend on getting that close to get to know him. There was an incident a few years back (possibly 2) where there were 2 dogs in a pub living quarters who turned on their owners little girl and killed her (can anyone remeber that?) if they can turn on family then they will have no problems going for a stranger

Thanks everyone - will keep you updated!

CFC

mommyme wrote: »

See i may sound stupid but i really dont want anything to happen to the dog. It is doing what they have trained it to do. The neighbours used to own a pub and the dog was a pub guard dog - they didnt let it in the living quarters. It'd make a smashing guard dog for a factory or somewhere it can patrol but its guarding a 2 bed houe at the moment and obviously me walking up the path (we share one) it thinks im on his property. Can the police not shoot the owners? lol



The police did mention about the "warning signs" when i called up and ive had a look and there isn't any. Now i think they can (kind of) conrtol him when they are about, he tends to return from my yard back to theirs if they shout it (they just chose not to shout him until he has gone to the toilet tho!) but when they arent at home is when he is at the window snarling. They let him out over the weekend and he was snarling at my dad and jumped up against the fence, my dad picked up a shovel and shouted "a dogs main artery to the brain is in the side of the head, whats the chances of me missing it?" they called him back pretty quick then (which i was suprised at!)

The problem i have is that i can prove he has been on the back (camera ;-D ) but i cant really prove he is banging at the window and headbutting trying to get out, every way i think of they can use the response that he is getting wound up by me (such as filimg on mobile etc) We have been stopped by a number of people who have concerns tho but they wont voice them so i wonder if i can get a statement from them or something that i could pass o to the police so it isn't just my word?

Not seen him last 2 days but neighbours been in . . no doubt he will be there to greet me in the morning when i leave for work and when i return

oh and RE: the "you dont know what its like" bit - no i dont and i dont intend on getting that close to get to know him. There was an incident a few years back (possibly 2) where there were 2 dogs in a pub living quarters who turned on their owners little girl and killed her (can anyone remeber that?) if they can turn on family then they will have no problems going for a stranger

Thanks everyone - will keep you updated!
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Mommyme, take (preferably dated) the photos of the dog in your back garden and pictures of it foaming at the mouth in the window, add in your own witness statements and preferably statements from others on the street and supply them to:

the police
the housing association
environmental health
neighbour's landlords
local area housing office of council

and anyone else you can think of that may be useful

dont worry about the neighbours claiming you are winding the dog up. The fact that there is evidence of ie being permitted in your garden will counter that.

You are quite right to be afraid. Rottweilers are dangerous dogs. I had this discussion a while ago in the forum, although there are some people on here with an 'ah my rottweiler is soft as cottonwool', and 'does it really matter providing it's only a few people who get killed' mentality. (which I have to say I cannot understand, except as some form of mental illness linked to an excess of anthropomorphism or childishness- either that or just of extremely limited brain power.)

They have killed and attacked more people than any other breed by a large margin, according to reliable scientific research. I don't know how dangerous a x is, but you can bet it's not like a poodle....