Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG

cairndog wrote: »

Yes Calor have issued updated tank position requirements ( I think it was 2009) which are very stringent indeed. I believe they were bound by the latest fire/health/safety regs. Problem for most people is they render their present and longstanding tank position illegal ! This has a number of implications which you can work out for yourselves. Most people can only keep their fingers crossed I guess.

I had exactly the same problem when I changed supplier last year. I explicitly questioned the tank siting when I signed my original contract with Calor in 2007. They said that as they had previously been supplying to the tank and that it was "to spec" when installed, they would have no problem with continuity of supply. They held to this argument come renewal time last year.

I suspect the true situation is subtly different and quite insidious. This is all supposition, but maybe an industry insider (errr, that would be David.T, then) could shed some light on how close to the mark (or otherwise) this argument is:

1. The existing supplier will already hold certification to prove that (at some time in the past), the tank was legal. As they hold this proof, they tend to turn a "blind eye" in order to keep the customer, knowing that because of this the customer is effectivley tied to them until such times as the tank is re-sited (at the customer's cost). This could almost be viewed as a "hidden uplift" clause tying the consumer to a single supplier as per the bad old (Pre CC) days.
2. Any new supplier will have a legal duty to audit the site and raise the paperwork to confirm that the tank is (to use British Gas' favourite term) "to current standards". As such, they are in no position to turn a "blind eye" and must therefore either refuse the business, or insist that the customer brings the tank into line with current regulations.

Over to you, David.T!

Ozzysmate

GrandadRob wrote: »

Ozzysmate, you sound like your position is the same as mine currently. I must agree that that Shell deal does sound the most promising so far, even with the £100 tank rental. I have requested a quote, but not replied as yet.

I was thinking the same whilst reading some of your posts GrandadRob.

I was also wondering how Calor can apply 'new build' regulations to your 14/15 yo installation which, when new, would have been inspected and approved for use by British Gas.

If you were to switch electricity supplier, would they be insisting that your electrical installation conforms to current regs? I doubt it.

LittleVermin

Ozzysmate wrote: »

Results of my enquiries to date all during Feb:
<snip>

Extra Fuel: 50.23ppl Tank rental £120/annum

<snip>

Calor: 44.9ppl for 3 months then capped at 3.5p/qtr. (their fair pricing clause)

Shell: 43.5ppl for 6 months then capped at 3ppl/6 month. Tank rental £100/annum.

Flogas: 65ppl with no cap Tank rental £40/annum.
<snip>

Hi ozzysmate and Rob,

If you use 1000l p.a. a 1ppl difference in price is 1000p - i.e £10 p.a.
If you use 2000l p.a. a 1ppl difference is £20 p.a.

If you use 1000l a 2ppl difference is £20 p.a.
If you use 2000l a 2ppl difference is £40 p.a.

But the tank rentals quoted above vary between £40 and £120 - i.e. £80 difference.

So if you use 1000l that's equivalent to 8ppl.
If you use 2000l that's equivalent to 4ppl, and
if you use 4000l that's equivalent to 2ppl.

If the suppliers won't move on price you might be able to get the ones charging more for rent to move on this cost.

We've seen rental posted on the forum ranging from £40 from Flogas (in the post above) to £170 from Carver, quoted by Rob last Autumn ( http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=38193694&postcount=294 )

Comparing prices was simpler when all the suppliers charged between £50 and £60 (I think) for annual rent!

cheers,
LittleV

[Apologies if the arithmetic above is spelled out more than necessary.]

HateLPG

LittleVermin wrote: »

We've seen rental posted on the forum ranging from £40 from Flogas (in the post above) to £170 from Carver, quoted by Rob last Autumn

Comparing prices was simpler when all the suppliers charged between £50 and £60 (I think) for annual rent!

Just to mudy the waters, I think Ozzysmate has an underground tank - always more expensive, for the "cathodic protection maintenance" reasons discussed a couple of weeks back, so I think £100 p.a. is in the right ballpark - certainly not outrageous!

Ozzysmate

LittleVermin wrote: »

cheers,
LittleV

[Apologies if the arithmetic above is spelled out more than necessary.]

My usage is around 3,000l so the 20+ppl covers the extra £60 plus some.

The big appeal of Shell, for me, is the 3p/6month cap. That way I know what the worst price will be at any point of the contract period.

HateLPG

Ozzysmate wrote: »

The big appeal of Shell, for me, is the 3p/6month cap. That way I know what the worst price will be at any point of the contract period.

Remember, it's an exit clause, NOT a price promise - there's no way to hold them to it, but you can wave bye-bye if they break it. Probably not much compensation if things in Africa and the Middle East get worse! LPG prices will just spiral then, for sure

Ozzysmate

HateLPG wrote: »

Just to mudy the waters, I think Ozzysmate has an underground tank - always more expensive, for the "cathodic protection maintenance" reasons discussed a couple of weeks back, so I think £100 p.a. is in the right ballpark - certainly not outrageous!

You're correct HateLPG, mine is underground but still only £40 with Flogas.

Even £40 seems excessive for what looks to be a brief, annual visit to connect a meter to the tank, shove an earthing rod into the grass and note the reading.

The delivery driver does a visual check at each fill.

Ozzysmate

HateLPG wrote: »

Remember, it's an exit clause, NOT a price promise - there's no way to hold them to it, but you can wave bye-bye if they break it. Probably not much compensation if things in Africa and the Middle East get worse! LPG prices will just spiral then, for sure

Thanks, you just burst my smug bubble.

rendor

In relation to this we had a similar issue. We were looking around to change from Flogas and contacted Countrywide who quoted the 3 metre rule. We have an underground tank in the back garden. This is not 3 metres away from the garden shed - which was put up by the previous owners of the house who had been with Flogas. Flogas did not come and inspect the tank when we moved in.

Countrywide did not actually come out to view the tank. We contacted Listers who came out and looked at the tank, were happy with it and agreed to take us on without any issues. So far we are happy with Listers who seem to be much more efficient and friendly than Flogas ever were. One reason for changing was that Listers told us that everyone in the same postcode pays the same price - which seemed much fairer than the Flogas system where everyone in our street paid a different price.

GrandadRob

Thanks for all that really useful stiff. Spoke to Shell today. David T. was right about tank position. My detached garage which is one metre from the tank, and inbetween the tank and the house, because it has no windows or doors on that side, counts as a blast wall, and is acceptable. Although they will have to inspect.

They have quoted me 47ppl.....guaranteed for six months, then 3ppl limit for another six months, or contract get-out. Tank rental for my overground tank is £60 pa. I guess that the difference between me and Ozzysmate is down to usage. Mine is 1500-2000, whereas his is around 3000. I have got them coming for a site inpection in about 10 days, but nothing signed as yet.

I realise that the 3ppl for the second six months is NOT a price promise, but if they bust it, I get another bite at the cherry. If they fill me up in say late March or early April, I won't want any more until probably this time next year. I don't use it in the summer months hardly at all.

Marks out of 10..............Waiting for bubble bursting comments...


BTW. Calor sent me an email stating that after a description of my tank site, I would have to move it before they would supply me.......