Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Den2Mark

Hi GrandadRob,
PS. To answer your Question about Calor tank rental, I was with Calor until last year, when they charged £60 tank rental, so not much diff to Countrywide. The Calor website is better than Countrywide - I miss the the Calor online order history facility. I found Calor service good - I only left because they tried to continue my contract at 49ppl, and by the time they found I was talking to other suppliers and offered to match any other supplier's price, I thought it was time for a change just to sample the alternatives.

LittleVermin

Den2Mark wrote: »

Hi GrandadRob,
I signed with Countrywide Farmers in Oct 2010 at 35ppl. In early Feb 2011 they raised the price by 7ppl, i.e. to 42 ppl. I queried with them why they raised my price by 7ppl while another of their customers on this thread had only a 4ppl rise. The Customer Services person told me that they were regularising all their customers, who were not on introductory rates, at 42 ppl.




When I signed up last year I asked for a limit on the price rise in a given time period, but the sales rep said they didn't give such a limit because they couldn't predict market price fluctuation. He said that if I found they were raising prices out of line with the market price then I could break the contract under unfair trading laws.
....

1. So GrandadRob should make his neighbour a VERY happy person by telling him/her he needs to be "regularised" - so his price is 42ppl not 55ppl! Maybe you should have a cosy meeting - Den2Mark, his Countrywide rep, GrandadRob, Grandad Rob's Countrywide rep, GrandadRob's neighbour ... and a TV crew?

2. Breaking Countrywide's "contract under unfair contract laws" - GOOD! But just how do users find out if Countrywide were "raising prices out of line with the market price"? By subscribing to Platts LPG prices* service? - that will wipe out any gain (and some!). So this ability to break the contract sounds good but is probably about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Over the years 2000 -2010 letters from BP, my supplier, informing me of price rises went from quoting "world prices of energy related products such as Oil and LPG" (14 January 2000) and "energy costs" (15 May 2008) to being specific about LPG or propane (in 2009 and 2010). When I tried to get BP's price down in 2009 or 2010 as the price of crude fell I was told that LPG was a separate market and LPG prices didn't follow crude prices (which are, of course, freely available).


* http://www.platts.com/IM.Platts.Content/MethodologyReferences/SymbolPageDirectories/LpgPageDirectory.pdf

ancillotti

For anyone who is concerned about the rip-off nature of how this LPG market operates, I would urge you to write to your MP (if you haven't already done so), so they can feed back your complaints by the end of Feb 2011 to the OFT Market Study. Time is running out!

Below is a quote from Charles Hendry, (Minister of State (Renewable Energy), Energy and Climate Change, 09 Feb 2011:-

"The OFT proposes that the market study should consider the supply of off-grid energy, to cover a wide range of domestic energy sources including heating oil, liquefied petroleum gas and renewable energy from a range of sources.
As the Competition Commission completed an in-depth investigation of the LPG market in 2006, with market orders from 2009 to enable switching between suppliers, the OFT also proposes to focus on the effect of those orders so far. The OFT retains an ongoing statutory duty to consider from time to time whether the orders are being complied with. Market studies by the OFT involve an analysis of a particular market with the aim of identifying and addressing any aspects of market failure, from competition issues to consumer detriment, and the effect of Government regulations. This can result in a range of different outcomes. There can be enforcement action by the OFT. There can be a reference to the Competition Commission. There can be recommendations for changes in laws and regulations. There can be recommendations to regulators, self-regulatory bodies and others to consider changes to their rules. There can be recommendations to specific businesses. There can be campaigns to promote consumer education and awareness. Alternatively, a clean bill of health can be issued. It is at this point that we will need to decide whether additional regulatory powers are necessary.
The consultation by the OFT closes on 28 February. The OFT has asked to receive representations from interested parties on the planning scope and issues for the study before formally carrying out its investigation of the off-grid energy market. I re-iterate that a market study is distinct from an investigation. A market study is not about any particular company or business, but instead considers the overall market structure. Investigations into specific companies will be prompted by direct evidence of market abuse, and be undertaken separately.
I therefore encourage hon. Members on both sides of the House to participate actively in the investigation, and to raise their constituents' concerns directly with the OFT. We have listened to the concerns expressed from every part of this country, from every political party and from all types of different communities, and we have decided that a full investigation into the way this market is working is now appropriate.
I am very pleased that the OFT is going to take forward that work formally. I believe that it will enable us to ensure that we can learn from the problems experienced this winter and go forward into next winter with a market that is more fit for purpose, so that all our constituents can benefit as we would wish them to do."

If we are ever going to change this unfair market ....... please write now.

HateLPG

Nice reminder, ancillotti. Thank you :-)

ancillotti wrote: »

For anyone who is concerned about the rip-off nature of how this LPG market operates, I would urge you to write to your MP (if you haven't already done so), so they can feed back your complaints by the end of Feb 2011 to the OFT Market Study. Time is running out!

<snip>

If we are ever going to change this unfair market ....... please write now.

I believe, somewhat unusualy, the OFT is also seeking direct input from users at this early stage. From the OFT website (http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/markets-work/current/off-grid/):

Purpose of the study
The aim of this study is to examine the supply of energy to consumers who are not connected to the main gas grid to ensure that they are working well.

Next steps
We will be gathering evidence from key players in the heating oil, LPG and renewable micro-generation industries as well as surveying consumers about their experiences. Interested parties can contact us by email at [EMAIL="offgrid&#64;oft.gsi.gov.uk"]offgrid@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL] or by writing to us at:

Off Grid Energy Market Study
Office of Fair Trading
Floor 2C
Fleetbank House
2 - 6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX

The closing date for submissions is 28th February 2011, so there's not much time left.

I would suggest (given the snail's pace at which Westminster sometimes works - it took more than six weeks even to get an acknowledgement of the last letter I sent to my MP!), that addressing you concerns of the way the market is operating directly to the OFT would be a good idea.

GrandadRob

Thanks for showing us your letter from Charles Hendry. I have had two from his office in the last two months, following letters to my useless MP who thinks that he is just a sorting office, and forwards everything to someone else.
Anyway your reply is much more enlightening than either of mine, mine have just been along the lines of explaining the origin of LPG, it's history and uses. The next one was just an extension of the first. So lets hope that something is going to be done, and SOON.

Just emailed that OFT website with my views.

LittleVermin

GrandadRob wrote: »

<snip>
So it seems to be Countrywide at 42ppl, or Calor at 44.9ppl with the 3.5ppl price rise in 3 months get out clause. I forgot to ask Calor about their tank rental... Anyone fill me in on that one ?

Any thoughts on this one please..which one to go with.

Hi GrandadRob,

I hope you were having a senior moment (yes, I have them too!) when you wrote about Calor's

"3.5ppl price rise in 3 months" because you wrote "3.5p in 6 months" in your post #691 ( http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=41166768&postcount=691 ).

3.5ppl rise in 6 months means you could be paying 55.4ppl for the last 6 months of your 2 year contract - which is much better than the price* (65ppl) ozzysmate was offered by Flogas very recently. BUT Flogas was going to give him £50 free gas .. but I expect Calor had a loyalty bonus too. And I'm sure Flogas would be dropping their price soon if the wholesale price fell ... (oops, another pig through my upstairs office window).


*Special Flogas Introductory Offer?

GrandadRob

At my age, every moment is a Senior one.
Yes, I think you are right, I have emailed Calor to clarify this one. But as wisely advised by others, I will not sign any contract until I have slowly digested every line, and all those inbetween.

I fully expect Calor, (if I chose them) to bust their contract with a hefty price rise. This would leave me free again to play the field for the next top up. I will keep you informed.
Thanks
Rob.

LittleVermin

GrandadRob wrote: »

Just spoke to the Countrywide rep. He quoted me 42ppl and £50 pa tank rental. I then informed him that the delivered to my neighbour last week at 55ppl..........is their normal practice. He said that the practice of charging different people different prices for the same product did bother him ! but apparently not Countrywide....amongst others. He would not offer any further contract enhancers.

............
Any thoughts on this one please..which one to go with.

Hi Rob,

Just came across this post by drfrot aka 'a happy Countrywide customer':

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=39033796&postcount=399

Of course there are lots of posts by others aka 'happy Calor customers' on this forum.

Tongue now being removed from cheek (before, in a senior moment, I forget and leave it there for ever).

LittleVermin

GrandadRob wrote: »

Just spoke to the Countrywide rep. He quoted me 42ppl and £50 pa tank rental. I then informed him that the delivered to my neighbour last week at 55ppl..........is their normal practice. He said that the practice of charging different people different prices for the same product did bother him ! but apparently not Countrywide....amongst others. .

Apologies for another post on this (but senior brains work slower - well, that's my excuse!).

Rob,

Good for you for mentioning your neighbour's price after getting your quote. The reason for the price difference (13ppl) CANNOT be distance from the Countrywide depot. So the only possible reasons I can come up with are:

1. volume used per year
2. size of tank (on brass plate)
3. location of tank - surface or underground (since suppliers seem to use LPG price as well as tank rent to recoup the costs of the tank and testing).
4. different rent, loyalty bonuses, etc which Countrywide have factored in

1. and 2. will effect delivery costs per year.

The other 'factor' could be:

5. how far into the 2 year contract your neighbour is.

It would be really helpful if you could post this info for all of us to read, please - if your neighbour agrees. And also send it to the OFT.

PS I've nothing against Countrywide personally but this case seems rather blatant at first sight. And if we can narrow down the differences between you and your neighbour then the reasons for the price difference should be clearer, if not exactly 'transparent'.

PPS There's a good example of price differences - on one estate - on "Flogas on Dont Get Done Get Dom" last May at https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2487493

HateLPG

GrandadRob wrote: »

I fully expect Calor, (if I chose them) to bust their contract with a hefty price rise.

Just remember, if it is 3.5ppl/THREE months, they probably won't have to issue any "contract busting" price rises. I think that's the whole point.

Its all a bit sad, really - as I've said before, if Calor could get their pricing right and their back-office services in line, I for one wouldn't have any hesitation in using them or recommending them to others, based on past performance from a supply and engineering support perspective. But based on my experiences, until they can get the pricing and back-office side of the business right, I really would be loathe to recommend them to anyone!