Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Sorting_Hat

Domestic rules too. its both . no such thing as "rights"
Its either legal or its not.

The HSE issues codes for Commercial and domestic, the industry has codes of practice that incorporate those HSE standards and the industry is expected to follow those same codes for all tanks no matter what those tanks supply.

The Liquid Gas UK codes state that the safety info should be either on the tank or a fence/wall.

As the Liquid Gas UK body is voluntary and not all LPG firms are in it you could hardly leave those outside to claim "it doesnt apply to us"  

mcmullank

Sorting_Hat said:

Domestic rules too. its both . no such thing as "rights"
Its either legal or its not.

The HSE issues codes for Commercial and domestic, the industry has codes of practice that incorporate those HSE standards and the industry is expected to follow those same codes for all tanks no matter what those tanks supply.

As the Liquid Gas UK body is voluntary and not all LPG firms are in it you could hardly leave those outside to claim "it doesnt apply to us"  

The HSE has no remit for a person's single domestic premises.  None.

All LPG regulations for domestic premises are codes of practice from the industry body which has no enforcement powers.  i.e. If you have an owned tank, nobody can force you to move it.  They may refuse to fill it but they can't force it to be moved.

From the HSE - 

"‘Domestic premises’ - means a private dwelling. These Regulations do not apply to domestic premises, and exclude homeworkers. However, they do apply to hotels, nursing homes and to parts of workplaces where ‘domestic’ staff are employed, such as the kitchens of hostels."

Sorting_Hat

HSE have no enforcement over the customer but they do over the industry, the rules are for the industry.

So the rules do apply to everyone by default.

This means that the customer can not do as they please with an LPG tank.

It also means that an LPG firm can not go to a self owner site, ignore safety issues and just fill the tank they came to fill.

LPG firms are now very cautious over accepting other firms tanks with either a physical visit or an online check.

mcmullank

Sorting_Hat said:

HSE have no enforcement over the customer but they do over the industry.

So the rules do apply be default.

This means that the customer can not do as they please with an LPG tank.

LPG firms are now very cautious over accepting other firms tanks with either a physical visit or an online check.

If the customer owns the tank then, yes they can do as they please with it.

After the explosion in Glasgow in 2004, the inquiry concluded that there should be a risk based LPG pipework replacement program to replace all metal buried pipework with polyethylene.  I can bet that none of the LPG customers on this site had to change their pipework.  Why - because the HSE can only enforce where they are have the authority to do so.

There is without a doubt, risk attached to an LPG tank.  However, it is rather contradictory for the industry to refuse to take on tanks when they continue to fill tanks that they own that are not sited within the current industry guidelines.

Sorting_Hat

HSE will go after firms that fill self owner sites that do not comply.
After that explosion (ICL plastics)  the commercial sites were made to comply, domestic enforcement is likely.

So if HSE cant go after the site they will go after the firm that has filled it.

Sorting_Hat

mcmullank, Is your tank non compliant?
You seem to be finding ways  for your LPG tanks to swerve the rules that govern the siting and use of LPG tanks.

HSE does prosecute firms that fill non compliant tanks and as I have stated it is noticeable that the checking of tanks at the switching stage has become far tighter than it was in the recent past.

mcmullank

Sorting_Hat said:

mcmullank, Is your tank non compliant?
You seem to be finding ways  for your LPG tanks to swerve the rules that govern the siting and use of LPG tanks.

HSE does prosecute firms that fill non compliant tanks and as I have stated it is noticeable that the checking of tanks at the switching stage has become far tighter than it was in the recent past.

Ehm, it isn't my LPG tank and therefore I don't care if it is compliant or not.  What I can tell you is that it isn't possible to site an LPG tank in my garden as it is currently constructed and to be compliant.  Yet, every time I phone my supplier, out they pop with a tanker and load the "illegal" tank back up.

You will not find any instances of the HSE successfully prosecuting an LPG supplier for delivering LPG to a tank that does not comply with the siting guidelines within a domestic dwelling. 

I know that you are a fairly recent participant in this thread, however, if what you are saying is correct then my supplier wouldn't be able to supply to me and I could insist that their "illegal" tank is moved.  Neither of these is likely to happen and has been discussed in some detail on numerous occasions.

Sorting_Hat

What you may find is it will be difficult for you to switch to another firm since many are either doing physical surveys or "online" ones.

The 2019 self survey from one of the majors has the following.

It is essential to the safety of the site occupier, ******* employees and members of the public that

LPG be distributed, stored, maintained and used in a safe manner. *****are full members of

UKLPG (the United Kingdom Liquefied Petroleum Gas trade association) and to meet a minimum

standard of safety across the industry, all LPG installations should be compliant with the relevant

UKLPG Codes of Practice. So we can be satisfied your LPG installation does comply, we have

produced a series of questions. Please answer the questions as accurately and honestly as possible

and in plenty of detail, any incorrect information may result in ******* being unable to deliver to you"

You tank will have notes that would be passed to any incoming supplier (at the preliminary switch stage) at which point the incoming firm could decline to accept or accept but choose to fit their own tank.

These rules are being enforced, perhaps more so than in the past but they are being enforced.

At the stage where the existing firm has had its tank rejected, that could be the point when you tank could no longer be filled as now the existing firm has been "made aware" that there are issues by the rejecting company.

mcmullank

Sorting_Hat said:

What you may find is it will be difficult for you to switch to another firm since many are either doing physical surveys or "online" ones.

The 2019 self survey from one of the majors has the following.

It is essential to the safety of the site occupier, ******* employees and members of the public that

LPG be distributed, stored, maintained and used in a safe manner. *****are full members of

UKLPG (the United Kingdom Liquefied Petroleum Gas trade association) and to meet a minimum

standard of safety across the industry, all LPG installations should be compliant with the relevant

UKLPG Codes of Practice. So we can be satisfied your LPG installation does comply, we have

produced a series of questions. Please answer the questions as accurately and honestly as possible

and in plenty of detail, any incorrect information may result in ******* being unable to deliver to you"

You tank will have notes that would be passed to any incoming supplier (at the preliminary switch stage) at which point the incoming firm could decline to accept or accept but choose to fit their own tank.

These rules are being enforced, perhaps more so than in the past but they are being enforced.

At the stage where the existing firm has had its tank rejected, that could be the point when you tank could no longer be filled as now the existing firm has been "made aware" that there are issues by the rejecting company.

My tank is allegedly visually inspected every fill.  Either this is carried out by people not qualified to inspect the tank or the incumbent is fully aware of the tank non-compliance.

It is complete nonsense to have the current supplier filling the tank for 2 years and then when you want to switch for the new supplier to say "sorry, tank isn't compliant with UKLPG codes".  The tanks don't move and what this indicates is that your current supplier is filling an "illegal" tank.  A tank which they own and allegedly maintain. 

This inconsistency shows that the issue isn't really around safety but more likely commercial interests taking priority.

Stubloke

My bulk Calor contract ends in September.  I am on 39.5ppl plus vat now.  What price is anyone getting now with the energy kerfuffle ? ( South coast)