Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Woggle

y-o-r-k-y said:

Just in the process of buying a property with Calor gas tank in the back garden for LPG heating. Can anyone tell me what my options are? Presume they'll be some gas in the tank on exchange. Will I have to stick with Calor as it's their tank? or can I switch to another supplier? If I switch what happens tank wise ? Thank you for any info as I have absolutely no experience of being off grid . The house is near Porthmadog, North Wales

We were in a similar position a few months ago. We were fortunate enough that the fixtures and fittings form got ticked to say that gas was included - and then didn't ask us for the 70% of gas in the tank.

That said I think the usual position is to reach an agreement on how much you would pay for the gas in the tank when you buy the property.

Calor will own the tank so you will pay an amount for tank rental (£120 per year??). I wouldn't sign a contract immediately on arrival. See how much gas you've got in the tank. When you need the gas (30-40% left) then shop around and see what deal you can get. If you can, then fix for 2 years (Calor offered me only a 1 year fix then variable in the second year).

Of course you might decide to shop around straight away given the state of gas prices.

The one thing you need to watch out for is whether the position of the tank meets current regulations. You will only get it transferred if another company will take it on. Ours doesn't (too close to the boundary wall) so at the moment our only option is to remain with Calor.

Does that help? Would be interested to hear thoughts from others.

LittleVermin

y-o-r-k-y said:

Just in the process of buying a property with Calor gas tank in the back garden for LPG heating. Can anyone tell me what my options are? Presume they'll be some gas in the tank on exchange. Will I have to stick with Calor as it's their tank? or can I switch to another supplier? If I switch what happens tank wise ? <snip!>

Welcome to the wonderful world of LPG! [Tongue-in-cheek alert]. Unless the property is on a metered estate the previous owner's contract was with Calor and you are free to be supplied by any supplier willing to do so. They will buy the tank off Calor (there's a formula used for this! You do not need to do anything).     You can find suppliers for your postcode on the trade website.  https://www.liquidgasuk.org/domestic/supplier-search  Each supplier MUST quote, subject to inspection....... because the tank and its setting MUST meet the code (the trade's own regs - it's NOT HSE regs). I'd ask suppliers to quote .... then haggle. The contract will be for a max of 2 yr. I doubt if you'll get such a good deal as Mister_G has always had from his indy, HBS, in Hants! Good luck ...and please keep us posted with the offers you get (to help others .... so initial price, max rise in year 2, etc...AND insist on getting sent a draft contract. There are sometimes terms you may wish to delete!).

Cheery_Daff

y-o-r-k-y said:

Just in the process of buying a property with Calor gas tank in the back garden for LPG heating. Can anyone tell me what my options are? Presume they'll be some gas in the tank on exchange. Will I have to stick with Calor as it's their tank? or can I switch to another supplier? If I switch what happens tank wise ? Thank you for any info as I have absolutely no experience of being off grid . The house is near Porthmadog, North Wales

There may be gas in the tank, although possibly not if the house is empty. Ours was with Calor when we moved - they agreed to top up half a tank but wouldn't do more without us signing a contract. 

We only have two suppliers here who will guarantee a small tanker (big one won't fit down our drive) so not much choice - we went with the other ones, and had to sign a 2 year contract, which is common. In our case, switching suppliers didn't mean anything for us in relation to the tank - new supplier sorted out the switch. I believe it's different if the tank isn't compliant though- in that case you might have to stick with existing supplier?

In terms of other things, we'd never been off grid for gas either and were quite worried about running out etc. We never have (although we did come close once). Our tank is in a field so it's a bit of a nuisance going out to check every few weeks, but the supplier's online estimate is usually pretty accurate anyway.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along soon 😊

LittleVermin

y-o-r-k-y said:

<snip....... >snip. The house is near Porthmadog, North Wales

Potential suppliers look like Avantigas, Calor and Flogas - the big three - plus a small indy, Camgas. I'd see if you can find any comments on the forum about Camgas: small family firms are usually the best. (Use the forum search facility). Mister_G's supplier fits that bracket. And there's a supplier up north many of the forum use which sounds great. Etc, etc. The MMC / CMA.. tried to get competition into domestic LPG .'market'... and indies rose above 11% by volume but then lots of good ones got bought up by the big three. A very sorry tale. This forum has privately (via msg) and publicly been very active historically trying to get contracts, etc improved- with some success. [Mergers & Monopolies Commission, Competition and Markets Authority ...lots of loverly stuff archived if you suffer from insomnia!]. Good luck!

LittleVermin

Majors undercutting indies?..... yep! If you are haggling and you tell a major what an indy has quoted you you can be sure they will undercut the price (knowing they'll get the money back in yr 2 ...or somehow). Each supplier tries to keep its volume up - and grow it....and the majors know they have lots of cash cows (also known as 'loyal customers'...often retired) paying premium prices.

y-o-r-k-y

Thank you all who replied to my New LPG user Question. Will have to make an enquiry with the seller about the amount of Gas in the tank, etc. Currently it's a second home /Holiday home but we will be actually living there and using much more Gas. Wonder if the current supplier is still Calor , although the Tank still has their logo on it. The location of the tank should be OK from what I've read, it's bag in the middle of the back garden, a bit of an eyesore ( will be putting a few pot plants in front of it). I'll see what the owner has to say, could even get them to top up and give me some breathing space when we move , probably late October. All advice I've been given on here is very valuable and I now have a clear picture of how things work , Thanks again.

LittleVermin

A few points! 1. If Calor's logo on the tank and Calor's emergency number on the card by the cut-off tap where the gas enters the house then Calor IS the supplier. 2. The tank needs to be visible to the tanker driver. But you can ask the incoming supplier to put their badges on the less-obvious side and not to pressure-wash any biofilm off the tank (yes, tanks are eyesores!). 3. asking the present owner to get a top-up is an excellent idea - then there's no pressure on you to sign any contract when you arrive and want some heat! Just pay the seller of the property for the LPG, no sweat. [Quick horror story here: I've had LPG for over 30 years.... initially with small local company (fine!), but they got taken over by a major (not so good... and big prices), then discovered this forum and found I could get much cheaper gas, so went to switch....... major refused to do anything except fill the tank at the ridiculous price (outgoing and incoming suppliers are supposed to work together to ensure users do not go without gas - it's in the CMA regs).....Well, spring was coming up .... and my daughter and I were damned if we'd been held to ransom so we just used gas for cooking and heated the house by all the other means we had. AND the incoming supplier filled our tank without a full signed contract (but there was an email trail). Not surprisingly we are still with with the indy]..

Mister_G

All good points by LittleVermin.  Just to add, my tank which was originally supplied by Calor, still has their stickers on it, so it will depend whether any new supplier has bothered to put theirs on it.

I've had LPG for over 40 years now and have had at least 4 suppliers.  It is a wild unregulated world out there, despite several attempts to get the market regulated.

I have been very lucky with my local independent supplier who is in the next village 4 miles away.  I'm afaid that he wont deliver to North Wales!

The good thing is that LPG is now cheaper per kW than mains gas!

Sorting_Hat

https://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/lpg/storagetank.htm

https://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/lpg/separationdistances.htm

The HSE does have rules on tanks and how they are situated.

Given that HSE says

"Emergency arrangements

The LPG tank will have printed on it the supplier's emergency number that should be called if there is a leak. If a fire breaks out then the user should have in place an emergency plan which includes evacuating people from the premises."

Then I would question if any tank that does not have the correct firms emergency stickers on it is not only non compliant but it is unsafe as vital time would be wasted calling the wrong LPG firm and what if the correct one could not be identified?

Not every LPG firm is a member of Liquid Gas Uk the trade assoc and any that are not use the CMA tank calculator for pricing tanks that can make the tanks significantly  more expensive than the trade members calculator. 

LittleVermin

Sorting_Hat said:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/lpg/storagetank.htm

https://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/lpg/separationdistances.htm

<snip>

Not every LPG firm is a member of Liquid Gas Uk the trade assoc and any that are not use the CMA tank calculator for pricing tanks that can make the tanks significantly  more expensive than the trade members calculator. 

Go up one level on your first link and the heading is:

Safe use of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) at small commercial and industrial bulk installations

Some years ago one of the forumites had some correspondence with HSE re HSE regs for domestic bulk tanks, and about suppliers claimed "grandfather rights" (i.e. suppliers can still fill non-compliant tanks ...even though a potential incoming supplier cannot (not true, HSE wrote - there are no "grandfather rights")). Trade assoc's codes are not on-line but are for sale: some of us got so fed up of being quoted the codes without being able to check them we clubbed together and bought a copy some years ago! There have been many revised versions since....!

I'm surprised the trade assoc now has its own tank sale calculator. I thought the CMA calculator was mandated but obviously not. There's quite a lot suppliers are supposed to do (according to CMA) which they often don't ...e.g. inform customers of switching rights. Yes, we checked this too some years back! Some suppliers did, some didn't. We (members of this forum) did get CMA/MMC to get one of the 3 major suppliers to 'voluntarily' improve its contract.