Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG

John_Day wrote: »

I am no fool. I will always ensure that I have sufficient LPG to accommodate severe weather contingencies, and I apologise for not making my point clearer.

I wasn't and never would suggest that. But can that honestly be said for ALL Calor's customers? And, possibly to the detriment of the more savvy, they have to set up their business to cater for all. Even the daft ones!

mitchy74

mitchy74 wrote: »

I was told by one of the smaller independants that Shell was trying to sell their Scottish LPG arm of the business, in doing so they are offering some fantastic rates to get customers on board.

Flogas @ 48.5ppl are currently trying to stop me moving over to Shell @ 32.5ppl, despite there being no contract in place. Every time they say no, it takes me further into the Winter months and higher usage. Horrible horrible company to deal with.

Just under a month on, now probably 6 or 7 weeks since the process started.... Flogas are still being difficult and havent signed over the account. They just havent completed the required paperwork to allow Shell to take over the account.

Completely infuriating.

HateLPG

mitchy74 wrote: »

Just under a month on, now probably 6 or 7 weeks since the process started.... Flogas are still being difficult and havent signed over the account. They just havent completed the required paperwork to allow Shell to take over the account.

Completely infuriating.

Do you have a "diary" of all communications etc?

If Flogas are obstructing for no reason, when SHOULD the paperwork have been completed, and have you required a fill since then?

Basically, presuming all is as you say and they are just being obstructive, I would write to them, send it recorded and advise them in NO uncertain terms that you require the transfer COMPLETED in seven days, or you will be going to Trading Standards.

Also, if you really can PROVE that they are being obstructive, and they have had to make a delivery between your original agreed transfer date with Shell and your Actual transfer date, I would look at the price differential and think long and hard as to whether it was worth issuing a legal action for a Small Claim (often referred to as an action in the Small Claims Court) to cover your consequential loss. This isn't a *complicated* procedure, but it can get a bit messy and drawn out. I suspect you may well have a case and I'm sure there are people on other parts of this site and on other forums who would be able to give you better advice and information if you were contemplating this course of action.

Good Luck

mitchy74

I only correspond with them via email so have all of them, apart from today when I phoned and went daft. Thankfully I am still at 60% full but with very cold weather looming that will go down rapidly.

They are saying that they havent received the required requests from Shell who promise me they have sent them etc, I have experienced the same with Brittish Gas via work.... annoying as the two companies wont talk to each other so its constantly up to me to try and sort with both saying they have done their bit blaming the other.

LittleVermin

Just seen molokoid's post in another thread (active before we got this Bulk LPG sticky) - and read some earlier posts, mostly by him (him? hope that's right - if not, apologies). And I hope he'll answer these questions for everyone's benefit, please.

"My tank was already in situ (2000l overground tank) when i moved into the property, so i bought it from the previous supplier, Calor."

In another post the price was qoted as £325 - this was based on the published formula* for tank sales between outgoing and incoming suppliers? I presume so.

"Maintenance needs to be done periodically at your cost, but it's far far cheaper than paying via a contract."

Tank rental costs c.£60 p.a. (though one much higher figure has recently appeared in this thread). How much is yearly maintenance - presumably by local LPG gas engineer - and also the cost of necessary 10 yr, 20 yr tests?

Do you pay extra on your property insurance for having your own tank in your garden?

"I get my LPG from whoever is willing to offer the cheapest price when i come to order. They're all regional suppliers that you're going to get it from, my main one is Listers Gases. But before i've bought through middlemen like Extra Gas, who then contract it to Flogas, but they get a better price than going direct."

You quoted prices of 27, 29 and 32 for your previous 3 fills in a post on 05.04.10. As you said - probably much less than most or all of us on this forum!

"Be wary with Extra Gas though, they state that they make a fixed mark up of something like 10% on whatever price they pay, it's not true, they make as much as they can!"

Tell us more, please! I get my LPG from Extra Gas.

Many thanks.

* tank price formula at http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/inquiries/current/gas/lpg_order_final.pdf pp16-19

molokoid

Hi,

Yep, you're right, i'm a bloke!

So a quick answer to your questions!...

Tank price...
I personally was not aware of the formula used to work out a tank price and checking back it was £425 i paid, not £325. This was the price quoted by Calor when requested.

Maintenance...
There's an annual examination, which is done by the driver when they deliver, so as long as you have one delivery a year, you're covered. You then have to pay for a standalone 10 and 20 year examination and gain the certificate. Mine was last done in 2007. When i enquired the cost was £120

Insurance...
Nope. I've never had a home insurance quote ask me how utilities are supplied to the property!

Price...
Not the best at the moment, but then i didn't bother doing any negotiating. It's 39p + VAT

Extra Gas?...
We may be getting things mixed up, there is a company called Extra Fuel (https://www.extrafuel.co.uk) who state they are trading as Extra Gas. They're current price is 45p so they're not competitive with any of the others i can get deliveries off (Flogas, Listers etc). Nowt wrong with them i'm sure, i just got blagged on the mark-up they stated they make on third party deliveries.

Cheers

GrandadRob

On the BBC Breakfast programme this morning, 29th Nov. They ran a piece about a Lady in a rural area who depended on cylinders of LPG for her heating. She explained how the price has risen over the years and was worried for the future. That was all, too short and no facts. She was pictured beside cylinders with Flogas printed on them.....:eek: She obviously was one of the sadly uninformed.

Anyway, following that I have sent an email to the programme with some facts, and expressing the wish that they make a follow up with much more information. So we wait in hope eh ?:beer:

DAVID.T_3

John_Day wrote: »

John,

Is this "complete fill" a "new" thing, and is it a PERMANENT rule? Or is it a practical way to maximise their delivery potential should we get another "Big Freeze" like last year?

I for one, wouldn't fancy driving an LPG-laden tanker around on icy roads, especially if it was to do a partial fill for someone living at the far end of some un-gritted road in the back of beyond, knowing that I would have to do the same thing all over again in a few weeks time. And remember, if the weather does stay bad, there will be days the tankers simply won't be allowed out on the roads at all for safety reasons.

Just a thought, but just for once, this may not be sharp practice and there might be more common sense to this "complete fill" business than there at first appears..............



I am no fool. I will always ensure that I have sufficient LPG to accommodate severe weather contingencies, and I apologise for not making my point clearer.

However, for argument's sake, let us assume that I am low on LPG, and the media is concurrently reporting that wholesale LPG prices are in free fall, but yet to be passed on by Calor - would I fill my tank in these circumstances ? would you ? There again, let us assume that we are at the end of Spring - just a few weeks of central heating to go, and I am considering marketing my property, however, I am low on LPG - would I fill my tank in these circumstances ? would you ? What would your reaction be if you called into your local petrol filling station, and they would only serve you, subject to filling your tank ? Do you imagine that Calor routinely fill their storage tanks to the brim, without any regard to fluctuations in the wholesale price market. Of course they do not, they buy with some degree of circumspection - just as I do on a retail level. Am I really so out of kilter with the rest of the Calor's domestic bulk customers ?

Where the comparison falls apart is that if you go to a garage to fill up of petrol you are using your own time, in your vehicle, using your fuel to get there. If you order half a tank of gas you have a £100,000 vehilce that does 8 MPG and a very qualified driver operating it, coming out to deliver half the amount he could have done, your gas company will soon catch on to this and your price would rise

LittleVermin

mitchy74 wrote: »

Just under a month on, now probably 6 or 7 weeks since the process started.... Flogas are still being difficult and havent signed over the account. They just havent completed the required paperwork to allow Shell to take over the account.

Completely infuriating.

Section 14 of OFT's revised guidance http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/monopolies/OFT-Domestic-bulk.pdf :

14. Who do I complain to if I have a disagreement with my supplier?

[FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]If you feel that your supplier has pressured or misinformed you to get you to sign a contract, has overcharged you or been unfair in some way then you should call [/FONT]

[/FONT]Consumer Direct [FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]on 08454 04 05 06 or see their website: www.consumerdirect.gov.uk. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]If you have a dispute with your supplier, you can seek advice from [/FONT][/FONT]
Citizens Advice Bureau[FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]. Contact details can be found on its website at: www.citizensadvice.org.uk. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]If you have a complaint about a possible breach of either of the Orders or are uncertain about how they might apply to your situation, you should contact the OFT Enquiries and Reporting Centre on 08457 22 44 99, or by e mail at enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk. Please note that OFT cannot provide advice or assistance to individual consumers or traders. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]Office of Fair Trading [/FONT]

[FONT=Univers,Univers]September 2010 [/FONT]

[/FONT]

HateLPG

DAVID.T wrote: »

Where the comparison falls apart is that if you go to a garage to fill up of petrol you are using your own time, in your vehicle, using your fuel to get there. If you order half a tank of gas you have a £100,000 vehilce that does 8 MPG and a very qualified driver operating it, coming out to deliver half the amount he could have done, your gas company will soon catch on to this and your price would rise

David,

I take your point. Up to a point. It makes some sense and is clearly a practice that a conmpany might wish to follow in an ideal world. That said, it might be equally valid to do a partial fill, on the proviso that it would ONLY be done if and when there was a tanker in the area with sufficient capacity to make the delivery without compromising other complete fills it is scheduled to make - actually (in my opinion) a better solution for the company anyway as they already have a tanker out there

Anyway, I know from recent experience that certainly up until a couple of months ago, Calor were prepeared to do a "partial" fill. Whether that was as a dedicated delivery or a"tanker already in the area" delivery (I suspect the latter), I don't know, but at the time, they were quite happy to do a 50% top-up for me!

As I am sure you are aware, certain LPG suppliers received some negative publicity last winter for allowing tanks to run dry during the cold weather. The point I was actually trying to make was to question whether some of the LPG suppliers were putting "standard operating practice" (whatever that might be for any particular supplier) on hold in favour of cold weather contingency practices and I was just questioning whether, in the case of Calor, this is now a PERMANENT change in policy, or they are just being smart in the face of impending bad weather? If you work for Calor, maybe you could confirm whether or not that is the case?

Having spoken to them I also know that Shell are taking a different approach to winter deliveries, preferring to ensure that if a tanker is in an area to do a full delivery, it will then potter round other customers in the area topping them up so that it then doesn't have to make a special excursion from the depot to the same area shortly after. An equally valid response to the same problem, in my opinion.

As always in such things, there are a number of ways to skin a cat - personally, I think either approach is valid, but if I were involved in the planning and scheduling of deliveries, I think I would be inclined to use Shell's approach. To use your analogy, I would see it as follows. I can either:

1. wait until my car is low on fuel and then make a special trip to fill it up from as near empty as possible, or
2. I know I'm getting low on fuel and need to fill up soon, so the next time I happen to be passing a garage I'll just stop off and top up my tank, even though it's not bone dry.

Anyway, thanks for posting - it is interesting having someone here with a different perspective on the domestic LPG market.