Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

LittleVermin

See BBC web news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11787658 about info on new energy use statements which also included this:

But the argument does not seem to have convinced the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC). In line with the coalition agreement, it is planning a change in the law next year to force suppliers to include details of the cheapest deal on the statement.

Maybe we should all get onto our MPs to encourage them to include LPG suppliers in the proposed law?

That would be a good result!

But maybe not for savvy money-saving people who might see their bills actually go up as the big suppliers could no longer keep a very large flock of sheep for regularly fleecing.

GrandadRob

The letter that I got from the Department for Energy and Climate Change, as a result of sending one to my MP, makes me think that they are not aware of the existance and importance of LPG. Their full page reply just justifies the massive rises being passed on to customers, by trying to explain world economics. It is about time that LPG was included in the main watchdog bodies governing mains gas and electricity. In my opinion after reading their reply, they are wholly on the side of the industry and don't care about consumers.
Just my opinion gained from facts.
ps.....not signed ANY new contracts yet, waiting until my tank goes down more so as to get a good fill on an introductory rate. But watching everyones posts to get up to speed when I do.
Thank you so much everyone for all the very useful information that I have gained from this forum. I am not a gullable consumer any more. :beer::beer:

rcgood

Received notice of our lpg price increase to 0.41p/l. Due to Political and supply issues. Our Supplier is a small independent trader in North Yorkshire
When we moved into the house in October 2009 it was 0.35p/l. February 2010 it increased to 0.37p/l
But i am stuck in a two year contract with a quarterly underground tank rental.

LittleVermin

This may be of interest:

Hi Dan,

I see from the BBC news website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11787658 ) that the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC), "in line with the coalition agreement, .. is planning a change in the law next year to force suppliers to include details of the cheapest deal on the statement"

Can I please request that serious consideration is given to including LPG suppliers in the new regulations?

Many people in North Cornwall - and in many other Lib Dem MPs' constituencies - use LPG from a bulk tank. And many of us have very bad experiences of being fleeced by suppliers. Prices of LPG go up when other fuel prices rise, but very rarely go down when other fuel prices fall.

Over 100 people, from all over the UK, take part in the LPG and Heating forum on MoneySavingExpert dot com and in particular the thread on "Bulk LPG / Cheapest suppliers / supply route" with the last post at https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/38621738#Comment_38621738 . Usually the LPG supplier owns the tanks, for which they charge rental (typically around £60 p.a.). Many people have posted the prices they pay - just in the last 2 months these have ranged from 68 pence per litre to 30 ppl - for the same product! Last May I was paying BP 53.95ppl, who then offered me a new 2 year contract starting at 42.45, but I changed supplier and paid another company only 36.29ppl, saving me about £160 on a tankful. Clearly suppliers get away with the highest prices they can.

You can see the range of prices people have reported in a useful post compiled by one member at http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=38448236&postcount=324

As I am sure you know the Competition Commission spent several years investigating LPG supply and made an order ( http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/inquiries/current/gas/lpg_order_final.pdf ) effective April 2009 which made it easier to switch suppliers, and limited contracts to 2 years. The nub of the order was that when contracts ended consumers could switch suppliers by sending a completed 'Supplier Switch' form to their new supplier who then sent it to the old supplier - who either sold the LPG tank to the new supplier (using a formula provided by OFT) within 28 days, or removed their tank so the new supplier could install a new one within 42 days. (This is all in a very useful FAQs sheet at http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/monopolies/lpg-faqs.pdf ). The CC order was a great improvement but as you can see from the prices I have quoted above there is not a lot of transparency in the market.

I believe including LPG in the proposed regulation for energy suppliers will improve the situation for most bulk LPG users.

With best wishes ...


***************
Apologies for the long post but please feel free to use/modify any part of this. I will, of course, let everyone know the answer I receive: I hope it will be more useful than the responses others have reported from MPs, ministers, Trading Standards, etc.. If you do contact your MP please let us know - the more the merrier! And hopefully the more who write, the more chance something might happen.

If you want your MP's contact details you'll find them via http://www.parliament.uk/about/contacting/mp/


PS Many years ago I taught my current MP - hence the familiar greeting!

GrandadRob

LittleVermin, May I copy your letter to my MP please.

LittleVermin

GrandadRob wrote: »

LittleVermin, May I copy your letter to my MP please.

Of course! And anybody else who wants to: no need to ask.

But can I suggest you chop it about a bit, add your figures, etc, etc ... so the DECC cannot prepare a standard answer to send to everyone! If they try to answer specific points with generalities they get another letter!

I think the link to HateLPG's post (#324) with all the 2010 prices is certainly worth including (I guess some poor researcher is going to have to draft the response for the MP - that's why I've put in several other links so they can get up to speed quickly). Maybe some people might like to also put in links to HateLPG's posts with prices from 2008 (#322) and 2009 (#323) - to show the vast range of prices predates the CC ruling - and continues today?

In your previous post (#343) you wrote:

"The letter that I got from the Department for Energy and Climate Change, as a result of sending one to my MP, makes me think that they are not aware of the existance and importance of LPG. Their full page reply just justifies the massive rises being passed on to customers, by trying to explain world economics. It is about time that LPG was included in the main watchdog bodies governing mains gas and electricity. In my opinion after reading their reply, they are wholly on the side of the industry and don't care about consumers."

and in #303 you said you were paying Flogas 64ppl while someone else had posted that they were paying Flogas 39ppl. This doesn't sound like "world economics" to me but profiteering. You were/are paying 25ppl (64%) more for exactly the same product. If it was really "world economics" all Flogas customers would be paying 64pppl - or 39ppl (give or take a little bit for different distribution costs). Ditto BP/Shell/Calor customers.

According to UK LPG's website over 150,000 homes use LPG - that's about 230 per MP on average - but most LPG users are in rural areas .... where Conservatives and Lib Dems have their seats.

"It is about time that LPG was included in the main watchdog bodies governing mains gas and electricity."- I totally agree. And since the coalition is going to get grief from the mains gas and electricity suppliers about the new proposals that energy suppliers have to put their cheapest deal on statements, including LPG suppliers in the proposals won't increase the amount of grief massively. That might be a point worth making.

Den2Mark

I'm going to send the following to my MP, Tessa Munt by 26 Nov.
In the interests of accuracy, I would be grateful if anyone spots any inaccuracies, could you let me know, via this thread? Thanks.

Dear Tessa Munt,

I am writing to request that domestic LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) heating fuel is included in the proposed change to the law next year to force suppliers to include the cheapest deal on statements.

I also request that further reform of the LPG market is needed to make it fairer, because at present there are huge differences in the price charged to domestic customers, which can range between 32 pence per litre and 60 pence per litre. My own suggestion is that the rental of the pressurised LPG tanks is completely separated contractually from the purchase of LPG fuel: that way there is greater transparency about the true costs of both, and no danger of cross-subsidy between tank rental and fuel purchase.

Dan Rogerson, MP, has recently received a similar request by letter from one of his constituents, and I would completely endorse everything said in that letter. I include a copy of the letter for your information, and I will copy this letter of mine to Mr Rogerson.

LPG users have recently had the law amended to allow them to switch suppliers after two years: previously they could not do this without paying for the removal of the supplier’s LPG tank, and for the installation of the new supplier’s tank. Most LPG users rent their tanks from their suppliers, who maintain them and check them annually for safety. The change in law to allow a new supplier to buy the existing tank from the incumbent supplier has been an improvement in allowing customers to switch suppliers, but it is still leading to huge price differences between those customers who can negotiate a low initial price per litre at the start of a two year contract, and those customers at the end of the two years who will have had their prices steadily raised, no matter what world oil prices are doing.

My concern, despite having recently switched supplier myself from Calor, who were charging me 49 pence per litre, to Countrywide Farmers who offered 35 pence per litre, is that I strongly suspect that I am being offered a loss leader, subsidised by other customers who may have no knowledge of the huge price differences, and that they are being overcharged. I doubt that this is a matter of one supplier being much better than another: I was amazed to have Calor phone me to match the 35ppl offer, despite having written to me only weeks before to announce the 49 ppl price they hoped I would accept. And I expect Countrywide Farmers will only increase my prices over the two year contract just started.

Three years ago I lived in a house with oil fired domestic heating, and it was striking that if one rang around oil suppliers asking for a quote, the prices offered hardy varied by more than a penny per litre. But domestic oil customers own their own tanks, and do not rent them (an oil tank is much simpler than a pressurised LPG tank), so oil users are free to order fuel from whichever supplier they like.

Also of note, and presumably caused by the opacity of domestic LPG pricing, is that:

• LPG prices for car fuel varies much less than domestic LPG
• None of the Gas/Electricity Comparison websites include LPG

In summary, we have an LPG market that isn’t working, and that disadvantages those without the knowledge to use web discussion forums to discover the prices that other people are being charged. I would be grateful if you could take action to make LPG prices clear to all customers, and ensure a fair market for all customers and suppliers alike.

Regards,

meagan

HateLPG wrote: »

Meagan, this means EXACTLY what it says. And remember, if you stay with the supplier BEYOND the MINIMUM 2yr contract period, this clause is STILL binding unless you have signed a NEW contract - another reason to look VERY carefully at the small print before accepting Calor's £100 renewal "incentive", as I believe the CURRENT cap is 3.5ppl per THREE months.

HateLPG wrote: »

Note that what they are offering is a RIGHT TO CANCEL, not a commitement to honour the price, and to invoke this clause you have to inform them (I would suggest in WRITING) within (if memory serves) 30 days of the date of the price rise (check that bit carefully). During the notice period, I believe the contract states that they will honour the pre-increase price. One word of caution - make sure that you actually CAN get a better deal from an alternative supplier before you put them on notice of cancellation as you want to do a tank TRANSFER to your new supplier on termination of your contract or you might get stung by uplift charges etc.

I have posted on this subject a few times and it pays to keep a track of all price rises carefully.

For example, assuming you signed on 1st Jan, and they then hit you with a 3.5ppl rise on 1 July (i.e. after SEVEN months - fat chance, but it has been known ) then they can't hit you with ANOTHER rise for a further six months (i.e. until the following Feb).

Also, if you sign on 1st Jan, and then get hit with (for example) 1ppl in June, 1ppl in July, and 1.5ppl in August, they then can't increase the price again until the following Jan, and then ONLY by 1ppl (or they will have exceeded the 3.5ppl in any 6 month period clause). I hope that makes sense - it often helps to write it all down in a table.

One thing I will warn, however is that (in my experience) Calor will try every trip in the book to wriggle out of this, from the "Sorry, but you have to understand that prices have gone up more than we expected/for reasons beyond our control" twaddle, to the "No clause 6.4 DOESN'T actually say that" rubbish via the "Please understand that we have no control over wholesale pricing so please accept this £50 "goodwill" gesture to just shut up and go away" line.

If you ARE in this situation, stick to your guns, do EVERYTHING in WRITING and keep records. After several attempts you might have to resort to the "If I don't get any satisfaction on this within the next 28 days, I will refer this to the OFT/CC/MP line" at which point they will magically crumble.

Good luck

I signed a contact with calor in sept 2010 and posted on here stating price would not go up for 6 mths,well today I have received a letter saying from 1/12 it will be increasing by 3.5.I am going to challenge this but would like some advise .Can someone tell me what is OFT/CC/MP line is as I have put it into the computer and got nowhere

John_Day

Visited this site for the first time, prompted by yet another letter today from Calor (dated 23 November 2010) increasing the price of my bulk LPG by 3.5p/pl , from 48.9p/pl to 52.4p/pl.

By way of background,I have been a bulk tank LPG customer of Calor for over 23 years, and live in North Devon, served by Calor's Ivybridge Plymouth Depot. Our home consumption is c.3000 litres per annum.

I too received the 'economic uncertainty' letter (dated 21 May 2010) advising that my bulk LPG would increase by 5.5p/pl from 43.4p/pl to 48.9p/pl. At that time I contacted Calor only to be advised that the price was 'nonnegotiable' and 'all our domestic bulk tank customers are paying the same price'. Clearly, I now know that was a pack of lies, and my loyalty and valued custom counts for nothing in Calor's eyes.

A further irritant is Calor's insistence that they will only make deliveries to FILL my 2000 litre tank. Hence, if this mug runs low on LPG, on the cusp of turning off the central heating in Spring 2011, he has to buy c.2000 litres at 52.4p/pl. I have to wonder whether Calor HQ in Warwick actually know how their Regional Depots operate ?

I now realise that, as far as Calor's customer are concerned, it is every man for himself, and there is no such thing as standardised domestic pricing. Such are Calor's duplicitous wiles that customers are re now forced to air their concerns on the web, and seek support for local consortiums of domestic bulk users. With a properly regulated industry, and an ethical approach to serving the loyal profit generating customer, that should not be necessary. Clearly, OFGEM need to be involved, as it is the same old tale - industries are incapable of regulating themselves !

As for me, I suppose I will now have to hawk my custom around the other LPG suppliers, and horse trade for the best deal I can get - just what I need in retirement !

I would love to hear other Calor customers' experiences via this site. What I have discovered, is that we will all have a different tale to tell. As for Calor HQ - well I suppose they will keep on sending out the 'economic uncertainty' letters, and turn Nelson's eye to the unscrupulous profiteering of their Regional Depots, until Dom Littlewood pays them a visit.

BBC - ARE YOU LISTENING ?

John_Day

Visited this site for the first time, prompted by yet another letter today from Calor (dated 23 November 2010) increasing the price of my bulk LPG by 3.5p/pl , from 48.9p/pl to 52.4p/pl.

By way of background,I have been a bulk tank LPG customer of Calor for over 23 years, and live in North Devon, served by Calor's Ivybridge Plymouth Depot. Our home consumption is c.3000 litres per annum.

I too received the 'economic uncertainty' letter (dated 21 May 2010) advising that my bulk LPG would increase by 5.5p/pl from 43.4p/pl to 48.9p/pl. At that time I contacted Calor only to be advised that the price was 'nonnegotiable' and 'all our domestic bulk tank customers are paying the same price'. Clearly, I now know that was a pack of lies, and my loyalty and valued custom counts for nothing in Calor's eyes.

A further irritant is Calor's insistence that they will only make deliveries to FILL my 2000 litre tank. Hence, if this mug runs low on LPG, on the cusp of turning off the central heating in Spring 2011, he has to buy c.2000 litres at 52.4p/pl. I have to wonder whether Calor HQ in Warwick actually know how their Regional Depots operate ?

I now realise that, as far as Calor's customer are concerned, it is every man for himself, and there is no such thing as standardised domestic pricing. Such are Calor's duplicitous wiles that customers are re now forced to air their concerns on the web, and seek support for local consortiums of domestic bulk users. With a properly regulated industry, and an ethical approach to serving the loyal profit generating customer, that should not be necessary. Clearly, OFGEM need to be involved, as it is the same old tale - industries are incapable of regulating themselves !

As for me, I suppose I will now have to hawk my custom around the other LPG suppliers, and horse trade for the best deal I can get - just what I need in retirement !

I would love to hear other Calor customers' experiences via this site. What I have discovered, is that we will all have a different tale to tell. As for Calor HQ - well I suppose they will keep on sending out the 'economic uncertainty' letters, and turn Nelson's eye to the unscrupulous profiteering of their Regional Depots, until Dom Littlewood pays them a visit.

BBC - ARE YOU LISTENING ?