Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

mcmullank

JNwornou wrote: »

I'm on a metered estate of 63 properties in Northumberland (NE22). The existing two year contract had expired so the estate was free to switch. We were supplied by Flogas at 44.5p per litre. To be honest, dealing with the two major well known LPG suppliers (Calor and Flogas) was very difficult and draining (and it mirrored the experiences that other people have written about on this site); given that the estate was very large (over 60 properties), it was very frustrating that we weren't been given quotes that reflected the large amount of LPG that we would use (ie no bulk discount). The quotes received were around 30-33 pence per litre....

Thanks for sharing your experience. Can you give us an idea of the usage for the estate?

JNwornou

To be honest, I don't know what the usage figures were for the estate (it's something that i couldn't readily get hold of). I ended up explaining the break down of the types of properties on the estate to the sales reps (30 detached four bed properties etc etc) and they took it in to account (or not!) before producing their quotes.

LittleVermin

Sharon Dias at CMA (Competition & Markets Authority) has kindly sent me the switching figures for domestic bulk LPG:

Domestic bulk LPG switching rates
Year to 31 May Metered estates (%)* Single tanks (%)*
2010................0.93...........................3.25
2011................0.56...........................4.07
2012................1.20...........................3.73
2013................1.16...........................3.97
2014................0.62...........................4.07
2015................0.82...........................4.20

* Calculated as the percentage of customers switching away compared to the size of the customer base at the start of the year.

Source: switching data provided to the OFT and CMA

Here, again, is a link to the FAQs from which here are two quotes:

In relation to supply of LPG to single bulk tanks, there has been an increase in switching between suppliers from around 0.5% at the time of the CC’s report in 2006 to 4.0% in 2013/14. This indicates that the Order has had some success in removing the unilateral power suppliers enjoyed over their customers.

given the relative success of the Order and the general level of competition in the market

{my bold}

The measure of this "relative success" is in the figures. You might think the term 'relative failure' is more appropriate.

To ensure more competition in the market the Competition Commission's Order has several features, some of which are in the FAQs. e.g.

Your existing supplier is required to tell you about when and how you can switch supplier and to refer you to the contact details for the LPG industry trade association (UKLPG). This information should be provided with new contracts and all invoices.

NOT ALL SUPPLIERS ARE COMPLYING (e.g. Flogas - see this very recent post). I would be grateful for copies/scans of contracts and invoices (with whatever you wish redacted!): please send me a private message. I will then collate these and forward to CMA.
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LittleVermin

mcmullank wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your experience. Can you give us an idea of the usage for the estate?

JNwornou wrote: »

To be honest, I don't know what the usage figures were for the estate (it's something that i couldn't readily get hold of). I ended up explaining the break down of the types of properties on the estate to the sales reps (30 detached four bed properties etc etc) and they took it in to account (or not!) before producing their quotes.

Some years ago a very helpful man, DAVID.T, who worked for one of the independents posted that their average customer used 2,500l p.a. so as a first approximation a 60 property estate would be expected to use 60 x 2,500 = 150,000 litres a year. Maybe in a year's time JNwornou can give us a more reliable figure: certainly LPG Homeheat seems to be the type of supplier we'd all like!... open, honest, helpful to people finding their way in the LPG jungle, etc. So here's the LPG Homeheat website - it's part of Northern Energy, or a linked company, and several others on the forum use it and have posted good reports.

Sadly David hasn't posted in a while. He corrected (very politely) misinformation others posted and helped with background info on the industry. He never advertised (which is banned on MSE forums) and we did not know who he worked for or even where.
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MillaC

Hi

We moved into a house on 24 Feb and inherited a Countrywide tank with 40% left. Not having had LPG before and with no knowledge of the market I contacted Countrywide to enquire about a new contract. I told them I was concerned as I only had 40% left. I was sent a document almost a week(!) later by email which I am happy to send by private email to be sent on to the CMA. I was sent none of the info listed above as required.

I was quoted 42ppl and given a 2 year contract. Having no clue if that was competitive I contacted a couple of the market brokers who all came back with deals with 1-2 yr fixed at 29ppl or less with cash back between £250 and £300. I called Countrywide back to see if they could compete. They took another three or four working days to respond, by which time my gas was down to 20%, which I told them. I am heavily pregnant and have a toddler and am reliant on gas for cooking and heat.

They offered 35ppl fixed for 12 mths with no cap on yr 2 and £100 cash back. So not even close. I said it wasn't competitive and asked for an ad hoc fill concerned I would run out before a switch. Countrywide refused. I said I would happily pay the 42ppl for an ad hoc fill (or more) but they flatly refused. No contract no delivery and 2yrs or nothing. Blackmail. I was being pressurised in the utmost and uncompetitive terms. This must be an issue which plenty of house movers fall victim to.

I signed up with another provider and decided to take the risk we would run out as I felt I had no other choice - they told me that Countrywide was breaking the law and had to supply and to try again as they shouldn't put me in that position.

We ran out yesterday. Our supplier switch is still going through. I am told Countrywide have up to 5 days to send the paperwork through and told to expect they will take the full five. The other company is pulling out all the stops - they even offered to refund the difference if I could get Countrywide to fill at any price. I tried again with Countrywide today. This morning they said ok and could I return the contract for an ad hoc fill. They called back and took payment details for a 750l emergency fill before Easter. They called back this evening almost 6 hours later to say they couldn't. This time it was because I had started a switch process so I had to sign up with them for 2 years or no fill. I explained I had given them every chance before switching and had expressly requested an ad hoc fill BEFORE switching and they had refused - leaving me with 2 choices as the consumer - 2 yrs on a non competitive tariff or run out. They wouldn't budge.

This evening the other supplier said they would get their legal team to write to Countrywide to try to support our position and see if they could get the switch papers expedited. I don't expect a miracle.

It's my birthday tomorrow and I will be spending the day 7mths pregnant with no heat or gas to cook with a toddler. Easter will probably be the same.

Legalities aside I am astounded at the short sightedness of Countrywide. Horrendous customer service for no gain on their part - I will do all I can now to shame them and fight this. I plan to write to them tonight and cc the CMA. I don't know whether it will get results but right now I would pay through the nose just to have gas!!!

Any help welcome.

LittleVermin

MillaC wrote: »

Hi

We moved into a house on 24 Feb and inherited a Countrywide tank with 40% left. Not having had LPG before and with no knowledge of the market I contacted Countrywide to enquire about a new contract. I told them I was concerned as I only had 40% left. I was sent a document almost a week(!) later by email which I am happy to send by private email to be sent on to the CMA. I was sent none of the info listed above as required.

I was quoted 42ppl and given a 2 year contract. Having no clue if that was competitive I contacted a couple of the market brokers who all came back with deals with 1-2 yr fixed at 29ppl or less with cash back between £250 and £300. I called Countrywide back to see if they could compete. They took another three or four working days to respond, by which time my gas was down to 20%, which I told them. I am heavily pregnant and have a toddler and am reliant on gas for cooking and heat.

They offered 35ppl fixed for 12 mths with no cap on yr 2 and £100 cash back. So not even close. I said it wasn't competitive and asked for an ad hoc fill concerned I would run out before a switch. Countrywide refused. I said I would happily pay the 42ppl for an ad hoc fill (or more) but they flatly refused. No contract no delivery and 2yrs or nothing. Blackmail. I was being pressurised in the utmost and uncompetitive terms. This must be an issue which plenty of house movers fall victim to.

I signed up with another provider and decided to take the risk we would run out as I felt I had no other choice - they told me that Countrywide was breaking the law and had to supply and to try again as they shouldn't put me in that position.

We ran out yesterday. Our supplier switch is still going through. I am told Countrywide have up to 5 days to send the paperwork through and told to expect they will take the full five. The other company is pulling out all the stops - they even offered to refund the difference if I could get Countrywide to fill at any price. I tried again with Countrywide today. This morning they said ok and could I return the contract for an ad hoc fill. They called back and took payment details for a 750l emergency fill before Easter. They called back this evening almost 6 hours later to say they couldn't. This time it was because I had started a switch process so I had to sign up with them for 2 years or no fill. I explained I had given them every chance before switching and had expressly requested an ad hoc fill BEFORE switching and they had refused - leaving me with 2 choices as the consumer - 2 yrs on a non competitive tariff or run out. They wouldn't budge.

This evening the other supplier said they would get their legal team to write to Countrywide to try to support our position and see if they could get the switch papers expedited. I don't expect a miracle.

It's my birthday tomorrow and I will be spending the day 7mths pregnant with no heat or gas to cook with a toddler. Easter will probably be the same.

Legalities aside I am astounded at the short sightedness of Countrywide. Horrendous customer service for no gain on their part - I will do all I can now to shame them and fight this. I plan to write to them tonight and cc the CMA. I don't know whether it will get results but right now I would pay through the nose just to have gas!!!

Any help welcome.

Welcome to the forum - and I'm really sorry but not surprised to hear your story.

Some say Countrywide are good suppliers - but there have been a few bad reports and yours is easily the worst. Normally the reports tell of endless price hikes......so the 'no cap' for year 2 is ominous.

OK - so the outgoing and incoming suppliers have to work together to ensure the user does ** NOT ** run out. That was part of the Competition Commission's Order (on the domestic bulk LPG market).

**Check out "Final domestic Order" from the archived docs here.

3.2 The new supplier and the existing supplier shall use all reasonable endeavours to ensure that continuity of supply to the customer is maintained during any tank
transfer or tank uplift.

**
BUT when I switched from BP years ago they refused to help - but my new supplier Extra Fuel (an independent) filled my tank long before I signed a contract. Fortunately it was June - not too cold and we used the last dribble in the tank for cooking and did all our heating with electric fan heaters, etc! I was NOT going to buy any more fuel from BP who had been ripping me off (Flogas bought BP's LPG business in 2012).

42ppl is uncompetitive. 35ppl is poor. Check out HateLPG's latest chart. Who's your new supplier, please?

I hope you have a happy birthday - with good news about your LPG supply ...and maybe even a tankful of the stuff.

**
PS Suppliers with the right kit can get some gas into your tank from regular gas cylinders - a bit extreme and they normally charge a lot for this (like £100 ..because the user hasn't told them they are low ..and then, oops, they are empty).

BTW Countrywide has a Facebook page - which you might like to visit!
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Mister_G

Just ordered 1000 litres at 30ppl from HBS.

At LittleVermin's request here's the link http://www.hbsfuels.com/

Lpgnewbie

Hi - we are on a metered estate in Dorset with 23 homes using approximately 25,000 litres per year, supplied by Lima Gas at 33ppl with no daily standing charge. Following takeover of Lima Gas by JGas, only a couple of minor billing issues - otherwise business as usual with same contacts

Essexuser

Afternoon everyone - just joined.


I moved to this house in September 2001 and until 2013 was with Calor finally paying 59.4ppl as a stand alone customer (I only have one neighbour and they are on oil), so I decided enough was enough and decided to take the advantage of the ability to change LPG suppliers (the service from Calor was to from average to poor).


I rang round and got the best deal I could at 44.9ppl from Avanti Gas, which was a good saving of circa 25% which was pretty good. Since then, as you would expect, the price has dropped and I am now paying 38ppl fixed until May 17.


I have see posts on here quoting late 20's as their cost but it isn't clear where they are located. I live in a totally rural area outside Ongar in Essex and I wondered if there were any other LPG users nearby in similar circumstances to me, who their suppliers were and what they paid, just to check and see if my deal still represents fairly good value.


Keith

mcmullank

Essexuser wrote: »

Afternoon everyone - just joined.


I moved to this house in September 2001 and until 2013 was with Calor finally paying 59.4ppl as a stand alone customer (I only have one neighbour and they are on oil), so I decided enough was enough and decided to take the advantage of the ability to change LPG suppliers (the service from Calor was to from average to poor).


I rang round and got the best deal I could at 44.9ppl from Avanti Gas, which was a good saving of circa 25% which was pretty good. Since then, as you would expect, the price has dropped and I am now paying 38ppl fixed until May 17.


I have see posts on here quoting late 20's as their cost but it isn't clear where they are located. I live in a totally rural area outside Ongar in Essex and I wondered if there were any other LPG users nearby in similar circumstances to me, who their suppliers were and what they paid, just to check and see if my deal still represents fairly good value.


Keith

Hi Keith

It doesn't really matter which part of the country you are in as the nationwide suppliers are offering cheaper prices than you are currently paying.

I assume you are still under contract (2015 - 2017??) based on changing supplier in 2013, in which case you will have to try and negotiate with your current supplier. Use the prices quoted on here as part of your negotiation but don't be surprised if you do not get anywhere.

Make sure you are fully conversant with the terms of your contract and any pricing limitation that are enforceable otherwise you have no leverage with the supplier until contract renewal time.

Good luck.