Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

AdrianC

HateLPG wrote: »

I did wonder whether you had previously been with Calor: in the light of the recent High Court ruling (http://www.mablaw.com/2013/10/vicariously-liability-database-flogas-calor/) I can't help but wonder whether this is a specifically targeted campaign to recover those customers that Flogas lost to Calor as a consequence of Calor's illegal behaviour.

How can they prove/know that's how they lost a customer?

We changed from Flo to Calor over the summer - and haven't had anything through from Flo. They didn't even try particularly hard to retain our business.

HateLPG

AdrianC wrote: »

How can they prove/know that's how they lost a customer?

We changed from Flo to Calor over the summer - and haven't had anything through from Flo. They didn't even try particularly hard to retain our business.

They can't prove or know anything, other than when the customer left, and who they went to. But I'd be willing to bet that they are targeting those who left for Calor particularly aggressively.

In your case, they will know you are under contract with Calor until summer 2015, so it would be a waste of their time and money to contact you. Yet...

HateLPG

Pensioners living in homes not connected to the gas grid should be given their winter fuel payments before temperatures plummet, MPs heard today.

Scottish National Party MP Mike Weir said the tax-free allowance of between £100 and £300 should be given out no later than September 30 to off-gas grid claimants, rather than the current situation in which most payments are made in November or December.

The full story is on the Stirling Observer website

CumbrianOracle

I often read this forum but have never posted before. Having read the above posts about Flo's fixed price of 38.5p I am fuming. I use approx 3000 litres per annum but am paying 59p per litre. When I queried the last price increase I was told that wholesale prices were shooting up and nothing could be done. How can they now offer 38.5p per litre to other customers?

I know I am under contract and can't switch at the moment but as soon as I can I will be off. Will they then offer me 38.5p?

Is there anything I can do? Does anyone know if it would be worth reporting this to the OFT or would they not listen to one insignificant domestic LPG user?

There must be thousands of Flo customers paying similar prices to me. Are you all happy subsidising their latest offers? Maybe we should all write to the OFT?

dougal123_2

LittleVermin wrote: »

Welcome to the forum!

Do check out what guarantee you have after the first year fixed price. And check for ANY option Flogas have for over-riding their "fixed" price.

Hi Little Vermin what do you mean about Flogas being able to override their fixed price?

HateLPG

dougal123 wrote: »

LittleVermin wrote: »

Welcome to the forum!

Do check out what guarantee you have after the first year fixed price. And check for ANY option Flogas have for over-riding their "fixed" price.

Hi Little Vermin what do you mean about Flogas being able to override their fixed price?

Following the OFT's ruling on LPG a while back, potential price increases should be limited in line with wholesale prices. This is problematic as us mere mortals aren't supposed to know the wholesale price and should not therefore be in a position to challenge the supplier's claims of increases in the wholesale price.

I think what LV is referring to is the practice, certainly used in the past by Flogas and Shell (I don't know about others), of whacking a "surcharge" on the price. They will tell you this is "temporary" and is due to "extraordinary circumstances" and that "as this is a surcharge and not an increase in price, it falls outside any contractual limitations on price increase".

In the case of Shell (several years ago, now) they imposed a "temporary surcharge" and several times went on record to state that it was just that - temporary owing to sharp wholesale price increases. After a couple of years, they quietly put out a statement that the surcharge was no longer temporary and the price (including surcharge) was now "the price".

I have no idea whether anyone has tried to challenge this sort of dubious practice in court, but the bottom line is it means you could end up paying more of your precious pennies per litre. If you threatened them with legal action in the face of such a practice, I doubt Flogas would ever let it get to court: the last thing they want is that sort of publicity, or any kind of formal ruling that the practice is unlawful under the terms of the contract. As with all things LPG, and as with many suppliers (especially the "major" suppliers), they will often try this sort of thing on and see what they can get away with. If only a small proportion of customers are savvy enough to challenge such rises, and the supplier backs down gracefully in their particular case, the supplier is still quids-in on the deal as a whole.

This "Don't Get Done, Get Dom" TV rpgramme (Jan 2010) highlighted this beautifully. The prices are (obviously) somewhat out of date now, but this picece is well worth a read to get an understanding of how Flogas have traditionally operated.

Handyman1

dougal123 wrote: »

LittleVermin wrote: »

Welcome to the forum!

Do check out what guarantee you have after the first year fixed price. And check for ANY option Flogas have for over-riding their "fixed" price.

Hi Little Vermin what do you mean about Flogas being able to override their fixed price?

Here is the section of Flogas Terms and conditions (on Flogas website) that may allow them to increase price beyond the quoted Fixed and Cap prices.


Contract usually has fixed price for one year and then a cap on increases by several pence every 6 months. if there are any Lawyers out there that can explain the terms and conditions and say what they are legally allowed to do it would be much appreciated. It looks as if you can withdraw from contract if they increase beyond limits but!! there are undoubtedly clauses that will make this uneconomic.


5.7 Where the cost of supplying the LPG increases due to:
5.7.1 any underlying increase in the cost of LPG as evidenced by reference to the relevant Platts LPG price index for North West Europe (taking into account any relevant exchange rate issues);
5.7.2 any increase in our direct transportation costs; and/or
5.7.3 any increase (not related to clause 5.7.1)in the cost to us of purchasing LPG from our suppliers,
we retain the right to pass on such increases to you by increasing the price of our LPG.
We may increase (in a single step or a series of steps) the price of LPG for the reasons listed at clauses 5.7.2 and 5.7.3 by no more than five pence per litre in any twelve month period. Please note that no such limit shall apply to any increase which reflects an increase in the underlying cost of LPG (as set out at clause 5.7.1). For the avoidance of doubt, the maximum increase in the price of LPG (the "Upper Annual Limit") in a given period is:
(a) the cost increase over the corresponding period due to clause 5.7.1; plus
(b) the cost increase over the corresponding period due to clauses 5.7.2 and/or 5.7.3 together,
where (a) is an unlimited increase and (b) shall be limited to a maximum of five pence per litre in any 12 month period.
5.8 We will notify you in writing regarding any proposed increase. If our prices are increasing due to an increase in the underlying indexed price of LPG as set out in clause 5.7.1 then we will provide you with details of the relevant Platts index pricing in effect as at the date of the notice and as at the date of our last price increase.
5.9 If we have sought to increase the price of LPG supplied to you at a rate higher than the Upper Annual Limit then you may, within two weeks of receiving notice of the price increase, terminate the Agreement by giving us not less than forty two days' notice in writing (during which time the original pricing shall apply).
5.10 If you fail to pay us on the due date we may charge you interest (both before and after judgement) on the amount unpaid at 4% above the base rate from time to time of the Bank of England per annum and also recover from you any reasonable administrative and legal costs incurred by us in recovering overdue amounts from you.
5.11 We acknowledge that you have a right to withhold monies to us where you have a genuine dispute against us in relation to the LPG and/or Services and we will not charge interest in respect of overdue payments in genuine dispute.

AdrianC

Handyman1 wrote: »

if there are any Lawyers out there that can explain the terms and conditions and say what they are legally allowed to do it would be much appreciated.

IANAL, but it seems clear enough.

There are three reasons they can increase the price to you.

1. The Platts LPG index going up.
2. The cost of delivery going up.
3. Their buying costs (other than 1) going up.

They can pass 1 on to you without any limit.
They're restricting the increase from 2 +3 to 5p/year.

They'll tell you in advance, and if it's because of 1, they'll give you the details of that.

If they try to put it up more than 1+(2+3, max 5p), then you have two weeks to cancel, but you have to give 42 days written notice and pay the "original" price during that time.

Pay late, and they'll charge you BoE base rate+4%+costs. But if you pay late because you're disputing something, they won't hit you with the interest.

Handyman1

AdrianC wrote: »

IANAL, but it seems clear enough.

There are three reasons they can increase the price to you.

1. The Platts LPG index going up.
2. The cost of delivery going up.
3. Their buying costs (other than 1) going up.

They can pass 1 on to you without any limit.
They're restricting the increase from 2 +3 to 5p/year.

They'll tell you in advance, and if it's because of 1, they'll give you the details of that.

If they try to put it up more than 1+(2+3, max 5p), then you have two weeks to cancel, but you have to give 42 days written notice and pay the "original" price during that time.

Pay late, and they'll charge you BoE base rate+4%+costs. But if you pay late because you're disputing something, they won't hit you with the interest.

Not At all clear to me, if they state FIXED PRICE and CAP you would think it would mean that. despite the small print. I would have thought that an agreed Fixed price for one year was legally binding? like the difference between quote and estimate?

AdrianC

Handyman1 wrote: »

I would have thought that an agreed Fixed price for one year was legally binding?

It is. Subject to the Ts & Cs.

But bear in mind that 5p/year cap is _outside_ any fix.