Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

crazyz

You would have to check the gas safety register some engineers have testing qualifications, your own LPG Provider may do the test at a cost, but check is this transferable.

J_B wrote: »

Who could do a 'test cert'?

HateLPG

Those who have read my posts in the past will know that I try to keep a watching eye on what's going on in Parliament in respect of Off-Grid energy supplies in general and LPG supply in particular. You will also probably know that I was distinctly unimpressed by the 2011 market study of the off-grid sector by the Office of Fair Trading, which I consider to be a very poor, shallow and unscientific piece of work.

I was therefore very surprised to discover only in the past few days that there is an All Party Parliamentary Group on Off-Gas Grid and that in October last year it launched an Inquiry into issues affecting off-grid constituents. This group includes several MPs who have been openly outspoken in their criticism of the Off-Grid energy sector. Their report was published in March this year and makes for very interesting reading, not least because it is openly critical of the OFT findings. I have reproduced their Summary of Findings below, which makes for very interesting reading. The full report and supporting documentation can be found on their web page at: http://appgonoffgasgrid.wordpress.com/ [highly recommended].

All Party Parliamentary Group on Off-Gas Grid - Summary of Findings

The off-gas grid sector has until recently been neglected as a subject for investigation and action, despite the many disadvantages with which off-gas grid consumers must cope. The Members of the APPG hope this inquiry and its recommendations help rectify this situation.

In terms of competition issues, we have a number of concerns regarding how the recent Office of Fair Trading (OFT) market study was conducted. The conclusions did not match the experiences which MPs heard about in their constituencies. It was with some surprise that we learned of the OFT’s reliance on data by postcode district to map numbers of heating oil distributors across the country. Postcodes can cover large areas, especially in rural parts, and do not give an accurate picture of how many suppliers cover each address in reality. Furthermore, the lack of spot checking meant the accuracy of this data was not confirmed.

We note the work carried out by the Competition Commission (CC) and OFT on improving switching for bulk LPG consumers. Regarding cylinder LPG, however, the OFT has yet to carry out any further work despite it being postponed from the original market study with the observations that cylinder LPG consumers are more likely than average to struggle with costs and are often unable to switch.

Heating is an essential service, and we believe consumers should be afforded the same level of protection no matter their source of energy. Moreover, although the APPG notes the argument that a natural monopoly does not necessarily exist in the off-gas grid sector, in some remote areas suppliers may have a local monopoly as effective as if the energy were provided through pipes and wires.

However, it is widely accepted that off-gas grid consumers do not enjoy equivalent protections to on-grid households. The Federation of Petroleum Suppliers (FPS) has yet to put in place a code of practice and shows no sense of urgency, despite having worked on the code for well over a year and having told the Energy and Climate Change Select Committee it would be in place by the end of last year. The consumers’ charter and recommended terms and conditions are also delayed.

Such a code would not cover over 20% of heating oil suppliers who remain outside the FPS and the strongest sanction would involve expulsion which is in, by default, the option chosen by those outside the federation. Miscommunication has meant the code has not been drawn up with any input from consumer bodies and has little emphasis on protection of the vulnerable.

Under the current system the OFT, Trading Standards and CC appear unable to guarantee sufficient consumer protection. For instance, the acknowledgement that suppliers routinely charge more on the day of delivery than originally quoted, a practice likely to be in breach of current consumer law, led to a single company changing its terms and conditions, rather than action being taken across the whole industry.

A particular case of insufficient regulation involves park homes residents, where the lack of secondary legislation equivalent to those dealing with water, mains gas and electricity could allow site owners to profit from their monopoly of supply.

The greatest anxiety for off-gas grid consumers tends to be high prices because of the more expensive fuels required to heat less energy efficient homes. Vulnerable off-gas grid households deserve payment assistance that meets their needs, particularly when the gap in costs compared to mains gas users is being widened by off-gas grid households being unable to benefit fully from smart meters, dual fuel tariffs and the Winter Fuel Payment.

Energy efficiency improvements are the only long-term answer to fuel poverty, yet there has never been Government policy focused directly on the off-gas grid sector where fuel poverty is particularly prevalent. Indeed, stakeholders complain about a lack of leadership, strategic focus or even knowing who to speak to in the Department for Energy and Climate Change (DECC). This was reflected in our experience, since the Department was unsure over which Minister should attend the APPG’s evidence session. Unsurprisingly, the Warm Front, CERT, and CESP programmes, whatever their merits overall, were of varying relevance to off-gas grid consumers, who will also struggle to meet the Green Deal golden rule.

The APPG welcomes, however, some funding set aside within the ECO for rural households, and feels also that the domestic RHI may prove useful. The opportunity to use these policies to benefit the neglected off-gas grid sector must not be lost.

There are other measures which could help off-gas grid residents. Smart metering is expected to be an effective efficiency measure for both mains gas suppliers and consumers, and off-gas grid smart meters could be of similar benefit. Some fuel suppliers have also been slow to embrace buying clubs which can offer the possibility of large orders at reduced cost of delivery and administration, providing consumers with enhanced buying power.

Lastly, large numbers of houses are within a small distance of the gas grid or are already connected but without gas heating. For these households, gas connection will remain a cost-effective option for the foreseeable future.

The committee comprises the following MPs (hopefully, yours will be among them):

• Dr Therese Coffey MP – Con, Suffolk Coastal (Co-Chair)
• Pat Glass MP – Lab, North West Durham (Co-Chair)
• Jim Shannon MP – DUP, Strangford (Secretary)
• Alan Reid MP – LD, Argyll and Bute (Treasurer)
• Gordon Banks MP – Lab, Ochil and South Perthshire
• Guto Bebb MP – Con, Aberconwy
• Rt Hon Sir Alan Beith MP – LD, Berwick-upon-Tweed
• Russell Brown MP – Lab, Dumfries and Galloway
• Katy Clark MP – Lab, North Ayrshire and Arran
• Nic Dakin MP – Lab, S!!!!horpe
• Chris Evans MP – Lab, Islwyn
• Angus MacNeil MP – SNP, Na h-Eileanan an Iar
• Mark Menzies MP – Con, Fylde
• David Morris MP – Con, Morecambe and Lunesdale
• Tessa Munt MP – LD, Wells
• Sarah Newton MP – Con, Truro and Falmouth
• Fiona O'Donnell MP – Lab, East Lothian
• Guy Opperman MP – Con, Hexham
• Albert Owen MP – Lab, Ynys Môn
• Julian Smith MP – Con, Skipton and Ripon

Should you wish to contact the Group for any reason, the named contact is:

Dr Therese Coffey MP,
House of Commons,
London
SW1A 0AA

Tel.: 020 7219 7164

I suggest that it would be a good idea always to send a copy of any correspondence to your constituency MP, especially if they are one of the Group members.

Edit 11/6/13: now cross-posted in the "Cheaper Oil for Fuel?" thread; I think it warrants it.

ancillotti

Well spotted HateLPG!

Things happen so slowly for LPG customers in terms of making any real progress where price is concerned. It's 3 years since I met with my MP and I see he is on the committee, so maybe things are still grinding forward, albeit at a snail's pace.

HateLPG

It's that time of the month again.

Wholesale is up a shade; Malvern DC (clearly directly linked to ANSI) is also up a shade; Extra Fuel and Cardiff Gas remain static.

Shower-of-roses

Can someone help me? I've only just found this thread and I'm feeling a bit wobbly. We inherited a LPG tank when we moved in and not being very wise about these things, I continued filling it up over the years via Countrywide farmers. I won't go on about the £400 a month initial cost of filling it over 20 years ago, the good old days when we naively turned radiators on and were warm. The current story is the LPG heats the water and we run 6 radiators off it (only 2 of which we use infrequently) and having recently run out of gas I was in a position to find out the ppl. It's a little over 70ppl, the bill is downstairs so I forget the oddment. I'm reeling looking at the prices on here. The last time I filled it, I couldn't afford to pay the bill up front so switched to a budget account which is now up to 135 a month.

Basically I need to know how I can switch to another supplier. I know Countrywide farmers wrote to me years and years ago to tell me I was out of contract (I hadn't realised I was in one). I don't know where that letter is. I know I pay something like 13 quid a quarter for tank rental. I'd like someone to advise me regarding telephoning a different supplier, will they fill the tank and I continue renting from Countrywide or do I need to switch the tank to another supplier? I'm really confused as to who owns the tank, what the rental is for (I presume Countrywide own the tank hence the rental). Am I making any sense? I have no test certificates, someone on here has suggested you need to show one to a new supplier. I don't remember having ever been supplied with one but there is a new trip switch near the door so I presume it has been done.
In essence, if I ring up, Callow, for instance and get a lower price per litre, will they fill the tank for me or do I need to be supplied with a new tank.

Thank you in advance to anyone who can decipher my ramblings I'm feeling rather ripped off at the moment and not a little sick.

LittleVermin

Shower-of-roses wrote: »

Can someone help me? I've only just found this thread and I'm feeling a bit wobbly. We inherited a LPG tank when we moved in and not being very wise about these things, I continued filling it up over the years via Countrywide farmers. I won't go on about the £400 a month initial cost of filling it over 20 years ago, .................... having recently run out of gas I was in a position to find out the ppl. It's a little over 70ppl, ............................

Basically I need to know how I can switch to another supplier. I know Countrywide farmers wrote to me years and years ago to tell me I was out of contract (I hadn't realised I was in one). .................. I know I pay something like 13 quid a quarter for tank rental. I'd like someone to advise me regarding telephoning a different supplier, will they fill the tank and I continue renting from Countrywide or do I need to switch the tank to another supplier? I'm really confused as to who owns the tank, what the rental is for (I presume Countrywide own the tank hence the rental). ............... ...........................
In essence, if I ring up, Callow, for instance and get a lower price per litre, will they fill the tank for me or do I need to be supplied with a new tank.

............................ I'm feeling rather ripped off at the moment and not a little sick.

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, you've been ripped off.

BUT you can change supplier. Easily.

The tank is owned by Countrywide Farmers. They should have done all the required testing, and will have the certificates. Any new supplier can buy the tank off CF but since it is over 20 years old (unless it's been changed) it's more likely a new supplier will install their own tank - you shouldn't be charged for this if it is going on the same base.

Yes, you can own your own tank, get it tested (and keep the certificates) and see who'll supply you cheapest. BUT no-one would advise buying a 20 yr old tank (but you could buy a new one) and it's only wise to own your own tank if you have a range of suppliers (preferably independents).

Please tell us the first part of your postcode as someone may know a supplier who is NOT a member of the UKLPG Association, the trade body, so is not listed on http://www.uklpg.org .

You need to check the layout of your tank as if it does NOT meet the UKLPG Code of Practice it may be hard to switch (and CF have been filling your tank which goes against their own body's code.) Calor has a useful plan of the distances to walls, trees, boundaries, roads, etc (and there's lots on this forum) - see here. Or Energas here.

HateLPG's chart shows what fair prices should be - so right now you should be paying 40-45 ish (depending on how much you use), with a tank rental for an overground tank of £50-70 a year (for which the supplier does all the safety checks and required tests, fixes leaks - if any - for free, and provides a free emergency call-out). So you've been paying 70+ - yes, Countrywide Farmers have been ripping you off for your LPG.

(But people have posted stories of being loyal customers of Calor and Flogas and BP and being ripped off. BP's LPG business is now MacGas - part of Flogas).

Good luck - and please post the prices, etc you get offered - the info helps other users of the forum. Suppliers MUST quote over the phone, subject to a site visit later. When you find a supplier you want to use, they will do all the switching - you just fill in a simple form. Easy.

HateLPG

Shower-of-roses wrote: »

Can someone help me? I've only just found this thread and I'm feeling a bit wobbly.
...
The current story is .... It's a little over 70ppl

Basically I need to know how I can switch to another supplier.

I'm sorry to hear your tale of woe, but sadly (and although it will be of little consolation) I suspect the majority of users are in exactly the same position.

The good news is that you've recognised that you are being taken for a ride, which is the key thing, and now you realise the situation you can do something about it. And I'm sure you won't allow yourself ever to be caught out the same way again.

Switching should be pretty straightforward, but there are some potential pitfalls. To keep things simple, I suggest that in the first instance, you identify potential local suppliers. The consensus of opinion is that smaller independent suppliers (i.e. NOT Flogas, Calor, Avanti or MacGas) generally offer better, fairer and more stable prices and a good service, although that is only a guide and does not hold true in every case.

To find likely suppliers, you can use the UKLPG supplier search at http://www.uklpg.org/ Simply enter your postcode and it will return a list of suppliers who are likely to deliver to you and who are members of UKLPG. However, be aware that in some respects (e.g. the supplier search), UKLPG is just a subscription-based cosy "club for the boys". There are quite a few reputable, fair and reliable independent suppliers who have decided they don't want to play UKLPG's silly games that won't appear in that search. If you can give us an indication of whereabouts you are, I am sure there are a few people who could suggest additional suppliers in your area if there are any.

As LittleVermin has already said, when you ask a company for a quote over the phone, they will give you a price straight away, subject to a site survey (this is a requirement of the Competition Commission Order which came into force in April 2009). I am guessing from what you have posted, that you are probably using between 2,000 and 2,500 litres per year. As you can see from the graph below, a typical fair price at the moment should be between 41 and 45ppl, but if you are using less than about 2,500 litres per year, you could expect to pay slightly over this - probably between 44 and 48ppl.

Rather than making a very long and scary post with details of every potential twist and turn and pitfall, I suggest that you start off by getting quotes and surveys from at least three suppliers (if you have that many available to you). Not all suppliers will take the same view of tank siting, even though they are all supposedly covered by the same Code of Practice, so even if the first supplier tells you there are fundamental siting problems, don't lose heart. If a supplier is happy with the siting and condition of your tank, and you are happy with their offer, then switching really and truly is as simple as signing a piece of paper, sitting back and letting them do the rest. That piece of paper will tie you into a two year exclusive contract with a new supplier, after which you will be free to switch again without penalty. But one warning: before signing anything, take time to read the small print VERY carefully.

If you want to dive in at the deep end and start looking at things in altogether more detail, scroll back through this thread. In particular, there was a lot of discussion around March 2011 about finding new suppliers and also about tank siting issues (sadly, there was some Trolling going on at the time, but I'm sure you'll spot the guilty party easily enough )

I'll keep things short and leave it there for now, but if you have any questions about the contract or finding another supplier, if you run into difficulties owing to tank siting or condition or if you are just unsure and want some more help or advice, please do not hesitate to come back here and post accordingly: I'm sure someone will happily point you in the right direction.

Good luck and keep us all posted.

Shower-of-roses

LV and HateLPG thank you so much for all your advice. :beer: After being slightly hysterical with my invoice and making a hasty post, I did read back through this thread and I think I get the gist of things.

I live on the welsh borders

Having just had gas delivered, it's probably best to wait before I switch as I'm on a budget account and have over £600 left to pay on that.

I'm worried about the tank siting as before my husband and I split up, he built a very tight fit wall around 3 sides of the tank! I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. The tank is actually newer than 20 years as I remember they replaced it some time ago and they struggled to get the new tank within my husband's pretty architecture!! I really don't want to go down the owning of the tank road. Sounds like more hassle later on.

Having really buried my head in the sand with LPG (and I've been totally thick frankly ) , I've never known what I'm paying, just shed a tear on each filling. So on reflection I'm guessing I'm under 2500 litres too (but like I said that's with us being cold ) Anyway, I'll post again with prices when I'm nearly cleared with that account and I've started ringing round.

Have bill in hand and it's 701 litres at 70.45ppl (I only ever fill to 50%) with countrywide farmers.

HateLPG

Shower-of-roses wrote: »

...
I live in Herefordshire on the Welsh border. Post code HR5.

Having just had gas delivered, it's probably best to wait before I switch as I'm on a budget account and have over £600 left to pay on that.

...

Have bill in hand and it's 701 litres at 70.45ppl (I only ever fill to 50%) with countrywide farmers.

The UKLPG website shows 6 potential suppliers for HR5:

• Countrywide Farmers
• Flogas
• Avanti Gas
• Calor Gas
• Callow Gas
• Lister Gases

Of these, Countrywide you already know and their deliveries are made in association with Flogas. Flogas is generally perceived to be the most expensive supplier over the long term. Avanti and Calor are the other two majors. Generally, people seem quite positive about their service, although again, their prices do seem to have a tendency to creep up a bit beyond what one might reasonably expect over the life of a contract.

That remaining two are smaller independent suppliers. I have heard one or two favourable comments about Callow but can't comment beyond that, although I would certainly approach them for a quote.

Which leaves Listers, and here you might just be in luck. I would have thought that you would be at the extreme end of their delivery reach, but the real benefit is that they are the supplier who provides LPG under the Malvern Hills District Council scheme. The Malvern Hills prices are published monthly on the council website (see the "Householder Information Sheet" linked from http://www.malvernhills.gov.uk/cms/communications/news/2012/october/lpg%20fuel%20deal.aspx ) and appear to track ANSI (which is a wholesale pricing index commonly used by the LPG supply industry - see the graphs posted on this thread). As such, you can see straight away more or less what price you can reasonably expect to be paying.

Personally, I would not leave it until you are on fumes to get negotiations under way - one unexpected cold snap and you could end up having to fork out for another fill up from Countrywide at their criminally extortionate prices. Plus, if you have to get the wall removed/modified/rebuilt or any other remedial work completed before a new supplier will take on the tank, that could also delay matters.

I would suggest that you get in the phone to Listers ASAP (http://www.listergases.co.uk/lpg%20suppliers%202.htm) and ask them whether they would be able and willing to supply you. They will need a reasonable approximation of your annual usage before they will give you a price (I would say that if you're on a monthly budget plan of £135, are paying 70.45 ppl (:eek:) and £52 per year rental, then you are likely to be using c.a. 2,250 litres per year). To be honest, if you're only just below the point at which higher prices kick in (2,500 litres) you may well be better off using a bit more and keeping a bit warmer - based on current Malvern figures, using 2250 litres at 44ppl would cost £990 whereas using 2500 litres at 41ppl would cost only £35 more over the year. Also, if any price they give you is wildly more than the Malvern Hills contract price, make them aware that you know of those prices and that you believe they should be able to get somewhere close to those, even if they can't match them. Do NOT let on just how much over the odds you are paying and do not mention the wall at that stage!

If they are willing to take you on as a customer and have quoted you a reasonable price, ask them to come out as soon as possible to do their site and access assessment and take things from there. Remember, you will not be under contract with them and will not have to settle your outstanding Countrywide bill until you have actually signed on the dotted line, so it's good to get any issues that might make it difficult to switch addressed and ticked off as soon as possible

Two other small but important points:

1. Put Countrywide on notice that until they hear otherwise, they are not to deliver any LPG unless specifically instructed by yourself (and put that in writing). You don't have to tell them WHY, just make sure that they don't pop along an stick in a few hundred litres when you aren't looking, next time a tanker is in the area;
2. Secondly, if you are talking to an independent, ask them to include an additional specific contract clause that gives you the option to terminate the contract without penalty should the supplier ever be bought out by or sold to another supplier. I know that quite a few people now ask for such additional clauses and I have never heard of any independent supplier having any objection to such a thing. And it will give you a little peace of mind should your supplier ever get unexpectedly taken over by another larger and more expensive supplier such as Countrywide or Flogas!

I hope that all helps. Please keep us posted as to your progress.

Shower-of-roses

So far - Listers have offered 46ppl and 40 quid per annum tank rental.
2500L = 1190

Callow - 43ppl and 52 quid per year rental.
2500L=1127

If someone can check my maths. Callow chaps were lovely on phone and coming over tomorrow to do a site assessment. Listers are ringing me back and will do a site assessment this week probably.

So what is my best bet? I'm kind of leaning toward Callow due to their all round niceness and lack of spiel. I suppose it all depends now on their site assessments.