We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum... Read More »
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?
Options
Comments
-
Lumphammer1 wrote: »If I am reading the chart that HateLPG so kindly posted, the wholesale price of LPG is 12ppl??? This raises a few questions….
Do the LPG suppliers buy at spot or do they use contracts?
I am considering the Lister ANSI tracker produce as they currently are at 31-32ppl. However, the chart shows they have had a margin of around 15p (e.g. 32p wholesale, 47p retail in recent years). Any reason not to expect 12p + 15p = 27ppl?
I know the ANSI tracker has been endorsed by Malvern Council but it appears to be a tracker in a very broad sense as there is no apparent and transparent fixed link between the index and retail price?
Anyone?
I have just looked at Lister Gases website. Their price for Feb is 31.34 p. I think the chart from HateLPG was a Jan figure so this may explain a difference.
To answer your question, It is hard to link between the index and the retail price because ANSI is only 1 of 3 ways in which lpg is purchased in the UK. Platts and CIF are also used. Also the ANSI price is only a guide price, it is not the price the refineries charge. This is also a collect price so add on £800 a load to collect it.0 -
I have taken some time out and re-structured the graphs. They now give a far more accurate picture of the situation (The slopes between the data points on old graph were just plain wrong and not representative of any price that was available). I am surprised that none of the engineers or scientists on here never picked me up this before: I guess you're all just far too polite :-) The old graph also had a slight inaccuracy due to "lag" - most supplier price changes came through a few days AFTER the ANSI change, so I had to "best guess" the first of the month price.
Moving forward, I will now try to make a point of posting the revised graphs around the middle of the month so that the current month's prices can be clearly seen.
For the benefit of the relative newcomers on here, in response to David T2's comment, the wholesale prices are not easy to find. I did have a source for the Platts index a year or two back, but that soon disappeared behind a (rather expensive) paywall. I wasn't aware that CIF was widely used as an index, but the ANSI price I quote seems to be pretty helpful (not that I would ever look a gift horse in the mouth should Platts or CIF ever happen to head this way!).
Anyway, the graphs are only intended as a "guide", and (as I have said before), I make no claims and offer no warranties. E&OE. etc etc etc. I just hope that they continue to prove useful to the LPG community :-)
Enjoy!= :beer:0 -
Hi Rob
Who is the point of contact between your estate and Calor? Whoever it is, they are doing a *terrible* job.. they should be able to get calor down to not much over 30p. Get a couple of quotes from Limagas or some of the other cheap providers mentioned in this thread and give Calor an ultimatum.. or just move. An estate of 40 houses all on lpg is in an extremely good negotiating position
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I don't know who the point of contact is for our estate. Do you know if that is published by Calor or if it's a case of knocking every door and asking people? I'm keen to challenge Calor now if you think we should be paying significantly less as my heating bills are ridiculously high.
Thanks
Rob0 -
CircuitW1zard wrote: »Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I don't know who the point of contact is for our estate. Do you know if that is published by Calor or if it's a case of knocking every door and asking people? I'm keen to challenge Calor now if you think we should be paying significantly less as my heating bills are ridiculously high.
Thanks
Rob
Hi Rob,
Welcome to the forum.
Two points about metered estates: 1) they are cash cows for the LPG supplier and 2) the supplier relies on there being NO single contact for the estate. SO the two year exclusive supply term gets reset by the supplier each time an individual user signs a new 2 yr contract ...and so the whole estate gets locked in. You can only switch supplier when everyone on the estate is out of contract. There have been many posts on this - with people posting that even short term tenants have been used by suppliers to reset the clock (of course there can only be one supplier for a metered estate as the LPG infrastructure is owned by the supplier..and possibly/probaby installed free for the developer).
What can you do about this? Either accept it ...and continue to pay whatever Calor demands...or do some legwork, post letters through letter boxes / call a meeting. If you get the backing of at least a good few of the other owners/tenants then you have a little power ...and the possibility of making bad publicity in the local press if Calor tries to ignore you (or sends a load of flannel as a reply!). I'd also get quotes from other possible suppliers (put your postcode in the box in www.uklpg.org, and check this forum for other non-UKLPG suppliers) and contact your local councillors and MP.
Here's something I posted last October with loads of links: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=66794582&postcount=2348
Good luck and please keep us posted.
PS - the links including cheering posts from people on estates who HAVE taken on the major LPG suppliers - and got a cheaper price and a better deal. Some have even got the 2 year contract clocks reset so ALL the contracts end on the same date - and the whole estate is then free to switch suppliers. As a footnote I doubt if the [former] Competition Commission, which looked at the domestic bulk LPG market some years back, was happy with the metered estate 'solution' but it's clear from reading the [now archived] submissions (even with redactions!) that they were strong-armed by the suppliers, which is hardly surprising - who wants to let a cash cow escape and be milked by a competitor?
About 40 properties on your estate, you wrote: some have over 300 (see my link) - so that would be a nightmare to organise to get a better deal!
....
Further thoughts! If you contact others on your estate you might choose to tell them what you pay per litre and what you pay for rental (or standing charge - I don't know what Calor calls it for a metered estate), and ask them what they pay for each. Flogas, for one, has charged people on the same estate different rates per litre (this was the subject of a TV prog - 'Don't get done, get Dom'. Unfortunately though I was in contact with people there - in Winkleigh, Devon - last year I haven't been able to get an update, but here's the original press report from 2010: http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/BBC-s-Dom-helps-Winkleigh-campaigners/story-12153047-detail/story.html ).0 -
I've got a possible crumb of comfort for anyone stuck on an exorbitant Calor rate. I called them last week to find out home much they had reduced my rate in response to the halving in the wholesale cost of LPG.
Of course, they hadn't. But they did tell me that the matter was "being discussed" and that I should expect a letter within a few weeks.
So it seems possible that we will get a (probably) token reduction timed to coincide with the end of the heating season.
It recently occurred to me that this would be a great time to own shares in Calor. Unfortunately, I discovered that this was not possible because they are a subsidiary of a privately-owned Dutch company, called SHV Energy.
On SHV's Web site, it publishes its "philosophy". This includes the statement that: "SHV’s most important values are integrity and loyalty. Integrity means being honest, genuine and totally open in communication about all matters that concern the company."
I wonder if they have ever told Calor?Nice to save.0 -
Juliandicks wrote: »Just had my latest price through from Woldlink today and it is 23.83ppl + 5% VAT !! Shame I am already full.
Just reviewing my contract
Woldlink are currently 15ppl less than anyone else .... too good to be true, or real deal??
0 -
I've got a possible crumb of comfort for anyone stuck on an exorbitant Calor rate. I called them last week to find out home much they had reduced my rate in response to the halving in the wholesale cost of LPG.
Of course, they hadn't. But they did tell me that the matter was "being discussed" and that I should expect a letter within a few weeks.
So it seems possible that we will get a (probably) token reduction timed to coincide with the end of the heating season.
It recently occurred to me that this would be a great time to own shares in Calor. Unfortunately, I discovered that this was not possible because they are a subsidiary of a privately-owned Dutch company, called SHV Energy.
On SHV's Web site, it publishes its "philosophy". This includes the statement that: "SHV’s most important values are integrity and loyalty. Integrity means being honest, genuine and totally open in communication about all matters that concern the company."
I wonder if they have ever told Calor?
I live on a mobile home park and Calor is provided through huge tanks on the park - the agreement is with the estate owners for the provision of gas to those of us who have a metered supply to our homes, mainly the more recent residents, newer homes, but certainly the majority.
We have been paying 54.5 per litre, but yesterday I received a letter (as others have too) to say that since January we will be charged 48.2 per litre. As I read my meter monthly, provide a reading and pay the bill when it arrives I will receive a rebate, but only from the date of the meter reading - which in my case is 19th of each month - very generous!
However, Calor is now asking its customers to also sign a new 2-year contract and once this is received we'll also receive a £25 credit. So in return for locking us in to Calor for a further 2 years we'll be rewarded by a payment of £25. Querying this, I was told "you don't have to sign it, but you won 't get the £25".
As Calor have been overcharging us for years I think this is outrageous. Oh, and if we change our supplier within that two years we'll be charged the costs of disconnection.
For years our estate has been trying to negotiate to get mains gas on the park but the cost doesn't bear thinking about, it would be just our luck for this to be achieved and Calor would rake in some 400 disconnection fees.0 -
I have just looked at Lister Gases website. Their price for Feb is 31.34 p. I think the chart from HateLPG was a Jan figure so this may explain a difference.
To answer your question, It is hard to link between the index and the retail price because ANSI is only 1 of 3 ways in which lpg is purchased in the UK. Platts and CIF are also used. Also the ANSI price is only a guide price, it is not the price the refineries charge. This is also a collect price so add on £800 a load to collect it.
Thanks David, for the info.
Apparently the Lister ANSI Tracker product was derived from the Malvern Hills scheme. Initially, I thought the 'tracker' product 'tracks' a defined and freely available ANSI price - in the same way as financial products track rates, but it seems not. The 'margin' between wholesale and retail seems unquantified anywhere. The Malvern Hills Scheme proudly states they monitor this aspect and I am currently following this up. My guess is that the audit element has been left, or forgotten or fallen between the cracks of council cuts.
If I find out I will advise here.0 -
hi , some may remember my posting almost 2 years ago when I negotiated a 2 year umbrella contract for our whole metered estate of 37 houses with Flogas . I have just renewed , we all come under same umbrella with same end date regardless if anyone had signed an individual contract in mean time . I have agreed 34.5ppl fixed for 1 year , then 2 off 6 month fixed to end of 2 year that will be agreed based on market shift nothing else . Hope this shows if estates can agree a single rep you can do deal . As we were at the end of a 2 year deal for whole estate and could have moved suppliers , put us in a good position . As we were with flogas already they didn't need agreement from more than 10 house to negotiate for whole estate, you only need 100% if you want to change suppliers .0
-
Our two-year contract with Calor is coming to an end in September this year. We had a nine-month lock to start with, at 48p, and it's not risen since. Today, I've had a letter saying there's a 6% reduction effective 28th Feb, with a guarantee not to rise until 1st October.
Shame they filled the tank a fortnight ago... <sigh>0
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 351.2K Banking & Borrowing
- 253.2K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 453.7K Spending & Discounts
- 244.1K Work, Benefits & Business
- 599.2K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 177K Life & Family
- 257.5K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.6K Read-Only Boards