Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

GrandadRob · 7 March 2011 at 7:55PM

Hornet, good position to be in. I am in that position too, but sadly with Flogas, who wouldn't dream of giving me a top up under 70ppl. So still just over 20%. We will see what Shell have to say about my tank location.
Rob.

GrandadRob · 8 March 2011 at 6:36PM

Today the Shell man came for inspection of tank. Very nice and helpful gentleman. BUT !!!!!!!

Tank siting all wrong, after 13 years.
Firstly my situation. I live on a country lane with no pavements. I have a brick wall outside, with a leylandi 8ft high hedge between me and the lane. The tank sits between my detached garage and the hedge, with a low fence surrounding it to hide it from view. I have a large square driveway inside.......................ok...

It is all wrong because.
1) Tank not 3 metres from the public highway.
2) The surrounding wooden fence is hazardous and must go.
3) The leylandi pose a potential fire hazzard.
4) The most important one......We have our power delivered via
overhead cables carried on poles. The power cable in a vertical
plane must be more than one and a half metres away from the
tank. It isn't.
5) Before the hedge grew, many years ago, I painted one end of
tank green to disguise it a little..........The tank must be
changed.

The ONLY solution according to Shell, is to resite the tank. The perfect position is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF MY SQUARE DRIVEWAY.
It must also be surrounded by Formula one style armco barrier to prevent damage from vehicles.

So as the Merecats say.....SIMPLES !!!

I have found one supplier who says not necessary to visit and inspect the tank..........................

Plan 2. Stay with Flogas.........:eek::eek::eek: Who won't even return my call to talk to them....

There may be one more plan. One supplier said that as my useage was around 1500 litres pa, a bank of four gas bottles may be adequate and not much more expensive. Also no contract.

I urgently need some words of wisdom from all my forum friends.

ps...The Shell rep said that around 90% of his calls were to Flogas customers wanting to change, and of those around 50% had their tanks in unacceptable places.

HateLPG · 8 March 2011 at 8:16PM

GrandadRob wrote: »

I urgently need some words of wisdom from all my forum friends.

Wisdom might be overselling it a bit, but anyway...

I presume an UNDERGROUND tank isn't an option?

On the downside, will cost quite a bit more to install (£450 to Shell I believe + the cost of any groundworks) and will have a higher "maintenance" charge (£100 p.a. instead of £60 p.a.)

On the plus side, as it's a 2000l tank, you won't need to get it filled too often (probably not such a bad thing in the current economic climate) and as it's underground, you wouldn't have to worry about painting the end to hide it. Also, you will be left with a nice space between your garage and hedge to park cars or store "stuff". Oh, and you would be forever released from Flogas' grubby clutches

I think this "turning a blind eye to badly sited tanks to keep the busniess" is a very common policy with some suppliers - 2 different Calor reps told me that if I changed supplier, my tank would have to be re-sited, but because they were already supplying it, they would continue to supply with no questions asked. I wonder whether the HSE is concentrating on the smaller, weaker independents and avoiding any kind of fight with the "big boys"? (see David.T's useful post on tank siting: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=41461736&postcount=743)

GrandadRob · 8 March 2011 at 8:56PM

Thanks for that advice. As to the underground tank, I asked the Shell rep that question.
He said that the siting restrictions mentioned with regard to the above ground tank, still applied.
I could have an underground tank, but still in the middle of my driveway, and with a crash barrier protecting the valve outlet at the top.

As to picking on the small guys, it seems reversed. They seem to be enforcing the code on the big guys, whilst some smaller ones slip under the radar. As the one who didn't want to inspect my tank.

LittleVermin · 8 March 2011 at 9:02PM

GrandadRob wrote: »

Hornet, good position to be in. I am in that position too, but sadly with Flogas, who wouldn't dream of giving me a top up under 70ppl.

Hi Rob,

Mole Valley Farmers have a deal with Flogas - and someone posted that their price went from 45 ppl to 30 ppl when they activated their MVF a/c. OK, that was 9th November last year but presumably Flogas still has a MVF price. There are other consortia about. But you might need to sign a contract ...

Down here in Cornwall Extra Gas use Flogas to deliver - so current price is 49.72 ppl - but that would involve switching to Extra Gas for a 2 year contract. (Interestingly when Flogas made their second delivery the driver was one of their engineers who said that if I'd switched to Flogas they'd have yanked my 19 year old tank out rather than getting it tested with ultrasound - i.e a full 10 year test. He also noted that some of the bits on the tank were obsolete - another reason for yanking it out. The tanks get refurbished ...and have a new lease of life).

Good luck.
John

GrandadRob · 8 March 2011 at 9:22PM

John, as a matter of interest, did ExtraGas inspect your tank when you switched over ?

LittleVermin · 8 March 2011 at 9:36PM

GrandadRob wrote: »

John, as a matter of interest, did ExtraGas inspect your tank when you switched over ?

Yes. They employed a local gas engineer to do the test. Nice bloke, and son - who'd been out a few weeks earlier when the BP tanker driver had not shut off the valve fully. He said he worked for many of the suppliers (but formerly employed in-house by Calor).

I think that despite my tank being put in in 1991 it probably meets most of today's regs - though a self-seeded sycamore is too close and now about 20 ft high.

Calor have a useful page on tank siting which you probably know about but others may not.

GrandadRob · 8 March 2011 at 10:30PM

Anyone know the charge for tank removal. As part of my ongoing search for the meaning of life and LPG usage, I am looking into using cylinders as I mentioned before. Also, how does a 47kg cylinder equate to litres ? The rules are nowhere as strict for cylinder storage as for tanks. There is no way that I will have a tank in the middle of my driveway, (adjacent to the dining room window by the way, as opposed to behind the garage wall). So if I can't find a less caring supplier, it will have to be cylinders.

It's a shame that I live so far from Beachy Head, cos I might just jump off...........................:rotfl:

HateLPG · 8 March 2011 at 11:20PM

GrandadRob wrote: »

Anyone know the charge for tank removal.

If there is any such thing as a "standard" charge, it will be set out in your "Terms and Conditions of Supply". Here are some examples (if anyone has up-to-date contracts from companies not shown here, please drop me a PM!)

Flogas Terms and Conditions of Supply, 2011.
Clause 8.6 (the exact same clause exists in Flogas 2010 contract):

Unless we have agreed to transfer the Tank to a new supplier upon the terms of the Order [Competition Commission order of 13th October 2008] we may collect the tank upon reasonable notice, regardless of whether there is any LPG remaining in the tank or not. [!] Please note that unless termination is as a result of switching supplier either by tank transfer or a new Installation the following charges will apply: £120.00 for above ground Tank removal and £400 for below ground Tank removal, which will be payable by you to us. Please note that this clause 8.6 shall survive termination of your Supply Agreement.

Calor Terms and Conditions of Supply, 2010.
Clause 8.3, "Tank Uplift Charges":

Where applicable, the cost of uplifting the tank is £20 + VAT [presumably at 20%!] (or £1,100 + VAT in the case of a below ground Tank including excavation). Whilst we will take care at your Address we will not be liable for any damage or disturbance caused by such works, other than to the extent that this results from our employees' or contractors' negligence. In respect of underground tanks, see also clause 13.5 below. [13.5 states that Calor are not liable for re-instatement of the site etc etc]

We reserve the right to increase the above charges by an amount not exceeding the rate of increase (if any) in the Retail Prices Index. The charges cover the cost to us of disconnection, evacuating the remaining Gas, its disposal and making safe the Tank(s), uplifting it and transporting it to a suitable depot for refurbishment. In addition, the base is made safe, but not guaranteed for future use. [Remember the posts a couple of years back about pipes being filled with expanding foam to render them unserviceable ?? (Link courtesy of Lv!)]

When the Tank is uplifted we will not credit you for any Gas contained in the Tank except where you have terminated this Agreement under clause 8.13 above. [8.13 covers various forms of breach - in this case, the exclusion should be assumed to mean where Calor are in material breach of contract]

We will invoice you and you will become liable for the Tank uplift charge forthwith.

BP Terms and Conditions of Supply, 2009.
Clause 9.10

If the Buyer terminated this agreement during the Exclusivity Period other than pursuant to Clauses 9.3 [Material Breach on the part of BP] or 12 [Interestingly, failure of either BP or the customer to comply with the terms!], BP shall be entitled to charge the Buyer for its direct losses associated with the Buyer's termination, including but not limited to loss of profit in providing LP Gas to the Buyer during the remaining term of the Exclusivity Period. The maximum charge made to the Buyer under this Clause shall be such sum as to compensate BP for the Buyer's breach of contract.

Extra Gas Terms and Conditions of Supply, 2011.
Clause 11:

In the event of the tank/equipment being removed from the site Extra Gas has no responsibility to make good of it. Removal costs and planning permission, if required, to be met by the customer. This applies to both above/underground vessels.

LPG Home Heat Terms and Conditions of Supply, 2009.
Clause 10(c):

The Customer shall pay to the Company the cost and expense to the Company of removing the Tank and Equipment. If the agreement is terminated before the contract expires, as shown in the schedule the customer will pay to the company uplift charge of £350.00. If terminated after the contract expiry, the date shown in the schedule, then the customer will pay to the company an uplift charge of £218.00

Premier Gas Terms and Conditions of Supply, 2009.
Clause 8.4.1

an uplift fee of £195 per Tank for the removal of above ground Tanks and/or £495 per Tank for the removal of below ground Tanks.

Shell Terms and Conditions of Supply, 2009.
Clause 6.2:

If the Tank needs to be removed from the Premises when this Agreement ends (unless the Tank needs to be removed because you have changed Gas supplier under Clause 8 or because we have increased the Gas price in breach of Clause 6.4), then we have the right to charge a removal charge. The current removal charge for 2009 is £250 plus VAT. If you do not carry out the necessary works to make the Tank available to be removed by us under Clause 7.8(b) [Material breach by the Customer], then we will be entitled to charge all reasonable costs which we incur in carrying out these works in addition to the removal charge.

[Clause 6.3 links these charges to the RPI]

Hope this helps!

LittleVermin · 8 March 2011 at 11:33PM

GrandadRob wrote: »

Anyone know the charge for tank removal. As part of my ongoing search for the meaning of life and LPG usage, I am looking into using cylinders as I mentioned before. Also, how does a 47kg cylinder equate to litres ? The rules are nowhere as strict for cylinder storage as for tanks. There is no way that I will have a tank in the middle of my driveway, (adjacent to the dining room window by the way, as opposed to behind the garage wall). So if I can't find a less caring supplier, it will have to be cylinders.

It's a shame that I live so far from Beachy Head, cos I might just jump off...........................:rotfl:

Rob,

1. "Hullo Flogas, I don't want LPG anymore, thank you. So I don't need your tank - you can collect it at a mutually convenient time, within the next 30 days." Just stop any DDs etc first! And you might want to get your Gas Safe engineer to advise you in advance so Flogas can't play silly bs [there are some horror stories about rubbish produced by LPG suppliers about having to fill all pipes with a paste of crushed snail shells, putty and ground rhinoceros horn before removing the tank, etc. OK, it was just expanded polystyrene foam or some such - but still tosh.]

2. 47kg cylinder holds 94 (ish) litres. [1kg LPG has a volume of 1.95l]

Useful page of conversion factors:
http://www.lpgprovida.co.uk/conversion-grid-factors.html

3. Glad you seem to have decided Beachy Head is too far to drive.

cheers,
John

Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Comments

Categories

Get our FREE Weekly email full of deals & guides - and it’s spam-free