Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG wrote: »

I had exactly the same problem when I changed supplier last year. I explicitly questioned the tank siting when I signed my original contract with Calor in 2007. They said that as they had previously been supplying to the tank and that it was "to spec" when installed, they would have no problem with continuity of supply. They held to this argument come renewal time last year.

I suspect the true situation is subtly different and quite insidious. This is all supposition, but maybe an industry insider (errr, that would be David.T, then) could shed some light on how close to the mark (or otherwise) this argument is:

1. The existing supplier will already hold certification to prove that (at some time in the past), the tank was legal. As they hold this proof, they tend to turn a "blind eye" in order to keep the customer, knowing that because of this the customer is effectivley tied to them until such times as the tank is re-sited (at the customer's cost). This could almost be viewed as a "hidden uplift" clause tying the consumer to a single supplier as per the bad old (Pre CC) days.
2. Any new supplier will have a legal duty to audit the site and raise the paperwork to confirm that the tank is (to use British Gas' favourite term) "to current standards". As such, they are in no position to turn a "blind eye" and must therefore either refuse the business, or insist that the customer brings the tank into line with current regulations.

Over to you, David.T!

It is true that if I were to receive a call from someone wishing to swap to me and the tank was not sited correctly, I would not wish to take on that tank until it meets the standard required. But so far I have not found many where we have had this problem.

I do not think the rules have really changed at all in the last 20 years, I think what has changed is gas companies now abide by them!! and HSE who until 2 years ago had no interest whatsoever in LPG have become very interested.

(did you know when HSE visit us we have to pay them for the time they spend working on our company. 1 Visit = £4,000 amazingly, now they can charge us, they come far more often)

Juat a final gentle reminder for anyone who might be thinking of making a submission to the OFT Off Grid Energy Market Study, but hasn't yet got round to sending or emailing them anything:

Purpose of the study
The aim of this study is to examine the supply of energy to consumers who are not connected to the main gas grid to ensure that they are working well.

Next steps
We will be gathering evidence from key players in the heating oil, LPG and renewable micro-generation industries as well as surveying consumers about their experiences. Interested parties can contact us by email at [EMAIL="offgrid@oft.gsi.gov.uk"]offgrid@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL] or by writing to us at:

Off Grid Energy Market Study
Office of Fair Trading
Floor 2C
Fleetbank House
2 - 6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX

Ozziesmate. I did the same thing as you, overstated my usage to get a better figure. But Wife has just reminded me of the rest of the conversation, which you NEED to know.

Whilst it is a Direct Debit, it is NOT the usual monthly collection as with other utilities. The Shell rep explained to me that it is there just to collect the bill EACH TIME FOLLOWING A DELIVERY. It is NOT collected monthly. They send you a bill, but instead of waiting for your cheque etc, the bill says WE WILL TAKE THIS FROM YOUR ACCOUNT (in one lump) ON....date....so make sure the money is there etc.

I haven't actually seen a contract yet, let alone ticked boxes or signed. This all came from a couple of calls to the Shell rep, a lady by the name of Emma. She started off by saying that using DD would save me one penny per litre.... I am not a fan of DD in advance, my electricity company have over £50 of mine in their bank already. But it was, she, who then went on to explain the bill followed by use of the DD. I can't see any reason why they wouldn't let me pay monthly should I choose. But I personally am happy with the way she wanted it. I will be checking that part of the contract as well as all the other very very small print...

Hi Dee0 - welcome to the "Wonderful World of LPG"™

First of all, I would suggest that you read this thread as fully as your time and perseverance will allow. Good and impartial information on domestic LPG is hard to come by. There's a lot of good information and advice posted here and I think it's fair to say that most of the contributors have got a pretty good idea of what is going on in the LPG market and how it works (I'm sure you'll spot the inevitable Trolls and troublemakers easily enough on your way!)

Your tank will currently be owned by your supplier (West Wales Gas). Even though you are not currently bound by any contract, it is unlikely that any other supplier will offer to supply you unless you sign a contract with them and they take ownership of the tank. Likewise, although West Wales Gas were happy to make a "one off" initial delivery given that you had only just moved in, they are unlikely to be prepared to make any further deliveries until you sign a contract with them. Any contract you sign will be for two years - that is the maximum period permitted by the Competition Commission, and I am unaware of any company offering contracts for less than that maximum period!

There are a few things in particular that you probably need to be aware of. Most of this is buried in this thread in one place or another, but I think it would be useful to highlight these points here for you and for others in a similar situation:

• It's hard to say what a "good" LPG price is (or should be) at the best of times. Given the current political situation in North Africa, that just got a whole heap more difficult. That situation probably shouldn't have a disastrous impact on the price of LPG here as the UK is a net exporter. But given the way the market operates, only the naive would bet on LPG prices not going up as a direct consequence. I would argue that a current "fair price" would probably be somewhere in the 45-50ppl range, but then I have a "consumer's" perspective. David.T who posts here (and who's opinion seems by-and-large to be respected) is looking at things from a "supplier's" perspective and would probably suggest about 5ppl more than that would be a current "fair" price (i.e. 50-55ppl);
• You need to haggle over price. Difficult in the current economic climate, but that's no reason not to try;
• Don't be fooled by the websites out there claiming to offer "the best price for you area" - by all means use that price as a "benchmark", but do NOT accept the "best price" claim at face value;
• To find potential suppliers, your best initial port of call is probably the uklpg supplier search tool (http://www.uklpg.org/supplier-search/). But be aware, that lists only suppliers that are paid-up uklpg members. If you are lucky, you may be able to find further local suppliers in addition to those offered by uklpg, so more homework could be required on that score;
• As far as West Wales Gas is concerned, that is a trading name of Budget Gas, who are in turn wholly owned by Calor. They "claim" complete independence. I can't comment on the validity of that claim, but probably better you know the situation from the outset;
• As far as other suppliers go, there are four major players: Calor, Flogas, Shell and BP. There is a tendency among members of this forum to feel that you are more likely to get a better deal from one of the smaller independent suppliers. On the other hand, I think you would be hard-pressed to get ANY forum member to put in a positive word for Flogas!
• There is a general feeling amongst posters on this thread that you are more likely to get a better price if you get the company rep to visit and try to negotiate face-to-face, rather than just accepting any price that you might be offered if you simply phone for a quote. Personally, in the first instance, I would phone and ask all potential suppliers to drop a copy of their contract in the post. Only once I had read the contract and satisfied myself that I was prepared to accept its terms would I ask a rep to visit to discuss the pricing detail etc. Understanding the contract in advance will also put you in a stronger negotiating position;
• LPG contracts from different suppliers can be hugely different. Read and understand the small print carefully before you sign anything. Particularly, look for clauses limiting the price rise or offering you the chance to terminate your contract should the price rise too steeply. Any contract that does not offer such provision is almost certain to be an "unfair contract" in law;
• The domestic LPG Market is currently unregulated. What this means in practice is that there is no Watchdog to ensure that companies "play by the rules". Not all supply companies are bad, but some are very definitely worse (and more unscrupulous) than others;
• The supply of off-grid energy was recently referred to the OFT by Charles Hendry. Closing dates for submissions were last Monday (28 Feb) and a report on initial findings is expected in about 6 weeks. Nothing will move fast after that - if the OFT feel there is need for further investigations or other measures, they will most likely make a referral to the Competition Commission. If the last referral (2004) is anything to go by, it will quite possibly be 4-5 years before there is any tangible result from any competition commission intervention;
• Depending on where you are and on the nature of your property, expected usage etc etc, it might be worth also looking into Solar panels and/or heat pumps or other renewable energy solutions as an alternative method of heating. Solar Photovoltaic (PV) panels and a heat pump could be a financially attractive route given the new Feed-in Tarifs due to come into force shortly. There are plenty of threads and websites discussing these technologies, so I won't elaborate further here, save to say take professional advice, and if you do want to consider these altebatives, try not to sign a two-year LPG contract until you have investigated them fully. I would also "refrain" from telling any potential LPG supplier that you might be considering such options for the future as any price you are quoted will be dependent on your projected annual usage.

Anyway, that's probably enough verbiage for now!

Good luck, and please let us know how you get on.