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  • FIRST POST
    • ToxicWomble
    • By ToxicWomble 10th Jun 19, 11:38 AM
    • 141Posts
    • 221Thanks
    ToxicWomble
    Out of interest
    • #1
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:38 AM
    Out of interest 10th Jun 19 at 11:38 AM
    Reading through this board, I caught myself wondering how many of these PCNs would be enforceable if the companies involved actually played by the rules/law/legislation etc

    If it was a reasonable percentage then why don’t they ?

    Only reason I can think of is that enough people just pay up that the costs of playing a “fair game” isn’t yet financially viable to them.
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Jun 19, 11:42 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:42 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:42 AM
    In most cases they do, the fault lies in "the rules" which they exploit.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Jun 19, 11:46 AM
    • 25,200 Posts
    • 40,680 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:46 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:46 AM
    Only reason I can think of is that enough people just pay up that the costs of playing a “fair game” isn’t yet financially viable to them.
    Originally posted by ToxicWomble
    Eureka, wish I'd thought of that.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case papers, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 10th Jun 19, 11:55 AM
    • 3,283 Posts
    • 4,180 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #4
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:55 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:55 AM
    hi,



    " rules/law/legislation etc"


    what would they be ?



    we may get some in the coming months , bur as of now there are none



    Ralph
    • ToxicWomble
    • By ToxicWomble 14th Jun 19, 7:02 AM
    • 141 Posts
    • 221 Thanks
    ToxicWomble
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:02 AM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:02 AM
    Ok, so let’s imagine everyone stopped exploiting any rules/regulations etc once there are some in place (if not already)

    How then would none payers/over stayers etc etc be able to avoid paying ?

    The answer I suspect is that they won’t hence my question

    So how does the current situation benefit the system - it doesn’t- everyone plays the loophole game and ends up costing everyone vast amounts of time and money.

    There’s only o e side making money out of this and it is t the car owners.

    How about car owners took more care and responsibllity for their own actions and avoid getting a “speculative invoice” in the first place.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Jun 19, 7:19 AM
    • 7,937 Posts
    • 10,823 Thanks
    waamo
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:19 AM
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:19 AM

    How about car owners took more care and responsibllity for their own actions and avoid getting a “speculative invoice” in the first place.
    Originally posted by ToxicWomble
    One of the big problems is that parking companies set out to entrap motorists. It isn't about parking management it's about making money.

    Every day there are tickets on here that shouldn't be given. A prime example is double dipping. You go to a shop, return later and the camera decides its one long visit. You get charged for staying 6 hours or whatever.

    It happens with alarming regulatory despite ppcs supposedly checking to make sure it doesn't.

    That's just one example. We have also seen doctored timestamps and doctored photos on here.

    You can play by the rules and still get a ticket. Despite this most people just pay up. You can see why ppcs do it.
    This space for hire.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th Jun 19, 7:46 AM
    • 5,720 Posts
    • 7,307 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:46 AM
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:46 AM
    HOw do car owners "make money" in a free car park? Or is this just a troll post from a new user with a sparse posting history?
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 14th Jun 19, 7:52 AM
    • 3,972 Posts
    • 6,331 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:52 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:52 AM
    There’s only o e side making money out of this and it is t the car owners.

    How about car owners took more care and responsibllity for their own actions and avoid getting a “speculative invoice” in the first place.
    Originally posted by ToxicWomble

    You really don't get this do you?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jun 19, 7:53 AM
    • 25,058 Posts
    • 32,035 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:53 AM
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:53 AM
    Smart recently sent my brother a ticket for anpr overstay or whatever in the kinnoull st car park, Perth, Scotland . He has never been there and especially not in his newish Toyota

    The 2 pictures clearly showed the number plate of the vehicle which was a Volkswagen. The pictures also showed an anpr overlay of the VRM details and they matched the number plates so all ok so far

    However, the VRM on the right of the ntk was my brothers plate with one letter being different so the idiot that applied due diligence at smart put the wrong VRM into his kadoe terminal and unlawfully accessed my brothers details and he was sent the ntk instead of the real keeper of the actual plate

    It has now been cancelled by smart after his snotty appeal. Lol

    So all the anpr details were correct, but human error and no due diligence checks caused my brother some angst due to an incorrect and speculative invoice

    No wonder Pete Wishart hates smart parking
    Last edited by Redx; 14-06-2019 at 8:00 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 8:54 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    Did you brother not go after them for a data breach? I would.

    This sort of service is not exclusive to PPCs. One of my flats is vacant prior to being sold. I am in dispute with the council and the electricity company over final bills.

    The council in fact issued me with a summons,(now cancelled), and are now Did dealing with a very aggrieved taxpayer demanding compensation.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jun 19, 9:22 AM
    • 25,058 Posts
    • 32,035 Thanks
    Redx
    Yes I have given him good advice about this breach and yes I would take it further myself too. But I am not my brothers keeper so it's now up to him as I cannot do it for him. Thanks for asking
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 10:27 AM
    • 3,441 Posts
    • 5,323 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Clearly, we'd all like it more if the PPCs followed the rules/didn't entrap people etc. Personally, I find it frustrating when people "get away with it" because of the laxness of PPCs. Pepipoo reveals the same issues with councils where there are things like the will/may fatal flaw.

    Even more on the Pepipoo council forum there are people going on there saying "fair cop guv" and then asking for loopholes. As someone who lives in a seaside town with limited parking that does irk. There is some truly awful parking here. And, occasionally on MSE, there is someone who posts who does get me. The last one was the gentleman who parked in an emergency vehicles only bay!

    The main issue is getting the right rules that have the correct balance between landowner and car driver/owner. And that they are enforced fairly and properly. Our local Waitrose is an interesting example. The vast majority of people who use that car park will be fully aware of the 90 minutes limit. But, even I can see, the signs are woefully inadequate and if someone was ticketed they will win any challenge.

    From the view of someone who has problems with parking on a private estate I would only think of using a PPC as a last resort. I wouldn't want, as others do, them to be banned completely. I can see specific instances where they would be of use. But, we wouldn't even be discussing it as a board of directors if a very few, very selfish number of residents didn't park in a way to cause traffic problems. And, continue to do so even in the face of signs, letters, yellow lines, hash markings etc.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 10:49 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    It is very easy to blame shoppers for not reading the signs, but when the signs, e.g. those of Parking Eye, contain over 300 words of very small print on an eight pole, it is to be expected.

    In such cases, imo. more defences should concentrate on the unfair terms and conditions provisions of the Consumer Rights Act, which is very rarely mentioned in the appeals/defences we see.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 14th Jun 19, 10:54 AM
    • 12,575 Posts
    • 17,541 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I can see specific instances where they would be of use. But, we wouldn't even be discussing it as a board of directors if a very few, very selfish number of residents didn't park in a way to cause traffic problems. And, continue to do so even in the face of signs, letters, yellow lines, hash markings etc.

    If you only have a few rogues to deal with, then maybe self ticketing would be the answer as long as the person nominated to do this does not start attacking the decent residents.
    A few £100 tickets would stop the rogues

    Hate saying this but it's better than having a fully fledged scammer operating
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 11:03 AM
    • 3,441 Posts
    • 5,323 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Yes I have given him good advice about this breach and yes I would take it further myself too. But I am not my brothers keeper so it's now up to him as I cannot do it for him. Thanks for asking
    Originally posted by Redx
    I can see specific instances where they would be of use. But, we wouldn't even be discussing it as a board of directors if a very few, very selfish number of residents didn't park in a way to cause traffic problems. And, continue to do so even in the face of signs, letters, yellow lines, hash markings etc.

    If you only have a few rogues to deal with, then maybe self ticketing would be the answer as long as the person nominated to do this does not start attacking the decent residents.
    A few £100 tickets would stop the rogues

    Hate saying this but it's better than having a fully fledged scammer operating
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    Yes. Definitely.

    That is the way we'd go if it comes to it. It's a reason why I wouldn't want PPCs banned entirely from residential estates.

    I quite agree about nominating the right person. I can think of at least two residents here who I wouldn't want anywhere near a self ticketing scheme!

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 11:05 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    Quite honestly, I cannot see the problems with self ticketing. If I lived in one of my investment flats, (rather down market, with a high proportion of HB recipients with several cars), I would be prepared to take it on.
    Last edited by The Deep; 14-06-2019 at 11:08 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 11:06 AM
    • 3,441 Posts
    • 5,323 Thanks
    NeilCr
    It is very easy to blame shoppers for not reading the signs, but when the signs, e.g. those of Parking Eye, contain over 300 words of very small print on an eight pole, it is to be expected.

    In such cases, imo. more defences should concentrate on the unfair terms and conditions provisions of the Consumer Rights Act, which is very rarely mentioned in the appeals/defences we see.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    I agree about the signs The Deep.

    As I say our Waitrose ones are awful. But the counter argument to that (in our case anyway) is that most regular shoppers will be fully aware of the 90 minutes limit but there are still those who ignore it....
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 14th Jun 19, 11:22 AM
    • 12,575 Posts
    • 17,541 Thanks
    beamerguy
    So, if you are going to do that, stay away from the scammers you see on here because when we have the new CoP, some of them could be banned. And stay away from an IPC member
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 11:45 AM
    • 3,441 Posts
    • 5,323 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Quite honestly, I cannot see the problems with self ticketing. If I lived in one of my investment flats, (rather down market, with a high proportion of HB recipients with several cars), I would be prepared to take it on.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Like a lot of things you'd have to go into it with your eyes open and make sure you have the contract you want.

    As BG says you have to ensure that the person doing it is fair. I can think of residents who would ticket people they don't like but let their mates off. Again, as BG says you'd have to have the right company and you want to ensure that you can cancel tickets (and there is a reasonable timescale for this). And, you would need to ensure that the PPC aren't allowed on the estate.

    There is the possible of confrontation which is a downside.

    It would, probably, work okay on an estate our size (69 properties and quite compact) where most folks are known and there are directors around most of the time. We, also, have a reasonable sense of community which would help. I am not so sure about bigger, more impersonal sites

    Hopefully, it won't come to it, anyway. We are looking at more lines on the road and hashed areas, too. Plus bigger signage. Residents don't tend to like big signs.......
    • ToxicWomble
    • By ToxicWomble 14th Jun 19, 11:53 AM
    • 141 Posts
    • 221 Thanks
    ToxicWomble
    is t was (clearly?) a typo for isn’t

    As NeliC says, there’s always people looking for an out or a loophole, which was why I wondered what would happen if the loopholes were closed.

    And before anyone jumps at me for being Mr(s) perfect, no Im not. BUT I have been driving for 30+years and guess how many parking tickets I have had in that time ....,,..,... yep NONE - if you do t do anything wrong, there’s no consequence.
    Yes, errors will and do happen along with “entrapment” and those I have sympathy for.
    The others who take no ownership of their actions and believe there are no consequences - you deserve everything you get
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