Out of interest

NeilCr

Interesting discussion and thanks for all the replies to my questions and comments.

Some random thoughts.

Convenience stores are just that - convenient. The one close to me and the Tesco Expresses near my partner and my best friend have zero parking. But they are within a couple of minutes and easy to nip down to and back again - assuming you are able bodied etc.

I remain to be convinced that, in general, supermarkets are much affected, financially or reputationally (is that a word?) by having PPCs on site. I completely get there are instances where there is a problem and I take the point about contracts - but still feel if it was a major issue they would have dealt with it - and/or that there would be media noise around it.

My feeling is that high streets and retail parks are different animals than (some) supermarkets. It's why I was more asking about PPCs and supermarkets. Again, in general, retail parks and high streets would like you to stay as long as possible. (Some) supermarkets while wanting you to take some time also need a relatively quick throughput of customers (and cars).

I tend to use my local Waitrose as the example here as it's the one I know best. Town centre, not big nor big car park. Has a cafe but nothing else other than basic shopping. Has a parking limit of 90 minutes which I reckon is about right. That lets folks shop, have a coffee and maybe use some other local shops, too. It has to have some sort of control because otherwise the car park would be used by day trippers, residents and staff of local businesses.

Conversely, there is a biggish Tescos which is just out of town. There are no other shops around and it has a bigger car park (not sure about a cafe). Afaik there is no parking control there. Really, there is no need to stay once shopping is done and there aren't that many nearby properties, either. Whenever I have been there the car park has been half empty.

LAs and high streets is a difficult one. Councils are heavily strapped for cash so car parks will be seen as a way of raising revenue. But, as Snakes Belly points out that has an adverse affect on the high street - and there are alternatives available to shoppers like online. As I say our council has free parking days on Saturdays in some car parks. I suspect this may be too little, too late. Sadly, some high streets are just going to get worse. Not something I like at all but the advent of the out of town retail parks/shopping centres began their decline

waamo

I remain to be convinced that, in general, supermarkets are much affected, financially or reputationally.

I think Somerfield will disagree with you. https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2012/1338.html&query=(Somerfield)

NeilCr

waamo wrote: »

I think Somerfield will disagree with you. https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2012/1338.html&query=(Somerfield)

Which is why I said, in general

Iirc (I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong!) this case goes all the way back to 2005 and involved a shortish (15 month) contract for a few car parks. And it was one specific part of the contract that was the issue?

Is there anything more recent - I am aware there are individual cases but I am thinking of something a bit bigger. As I have said I haven't seen anything in the media about PPCs being an issue for supermarkets and a cause of their loss of profits/customers.

Genuinely interested.

Umkomaas

Things turned out nasty for the Co-op in their contract with CEL. CEL were mercilessly pursuing Co-op customers and the Co-op relationship with their customers (and their bottom line) was suffering.

In order to ameliorate the stress being placed on customers, where they complained to the Co-op about the charge they'd received, the Co-op paid the £100 to CEL direct. Guess what? CEL turned the thumbscrews even tighter as now they found a route to even easier money.

Eventually the Co-op realised they were trapped between a rock and a hard place, and cancelled their contract with CEL.

Then ........ revenge!

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/01/cel-turn-up-to-court-50-cases-of.html

NeilCr

Umkomaas wrote: »

Things turned out nasty for the Co-op in their contract with CEL. CEL were mercilessly pursuing Co-op customers and the Co-op relationship with their customers (and their bottom line) was suffering.

In order to ameliorate the stress being placed on customers, where they complained to the Co-op about the charge they'd received, the Co-op paid the £100 to CEL direct. Guess what? CEL turned the thumbscrews even tighter as now they found a route to even easier money.

Eventually the Co-op realised they were trapped between a rock and a hard place, and cancelled their contract with CEL.

Then ........ revenge!

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/01/cel-turn-up-to-court-50-cases-of.html

Thanks!

:j:j

That's interesting.

Quite agree about how awful CEL were. But, a quick Google search shows that the Co-Op (in certain areas anyway) are still using PPCs. So, it does sound from their POV that the issue may have been with CEL and not the use of PPCs, in general.

Sorry to all if I am appearing picky on this topic!. It's just that I have heard this assertion elsewhere (in a pub in town as it happens :beer:) - that the use of PPCs is affecting supermarket business and it would be good to have some solid facts to carry on the discussion. It's been going a while......

Snakes_Belly

I don't know if 90 minutes is enough especially in stores like Sainsbury which sell clothing. Most of the supermarkets in my local area are totally free to park with a few exceptions. When Aldi changed to 90 mins some got caught out.

Some of the Tesco stores in the area that I live also have a travel agency inside the store. Clothing, travel, travel money, mobile phones, homeware, prescriptions plus groceries. If they were to introduce a time limit they would certainly lose trade.

Umkomaas

But, a quick Google search shows that the Co-Op (in certain areas anyway) are still using PPCs

From memory, the subsequent cases we've seen (nowhere even close to the volume we were dealing with 5 years ago), have been from independent co-op stores, not the Co-op Group stores.

There are two types of co-operative food store:

Co-op Group stores
Independent co-operative stores

https://blog.coop.co.uk/2017/11/07/using-different-co-op-membership-cards-in-different-co-op-food-stores/

beamerguy

NeilCr wrote: »

As I have said I haven't seen anything in the media about PPCs being an issue for supermarkets and a cause of their loss of profits/customers.

Genuinely interested.

I doubt you ever will .... The usual excuse from the big 4 is "trading conditions" They can never know at any given point the reason for profits falling and often blame Aldi and Lidl

We are English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish (not all in one go of course) and we are the masters of a vanishing act if things don't please us

NeilCr

Snakes_Belly wrote: »

I don't know if 90 minutes is enough especially in stores like Sainsbury which sell clothing. Most of the supermarkets in my local area are totally free to park with a few exceptions. When Aldi changed to 90 mins some got caught out.

Some of the Tesco stores in the area that I live also have a travel agency inside the store. Clothing, travel, travel money, mobile phones, homeware, prescriptions plus groceries. If they were to introduce a time limit they would certainly lose trade.

I agree with this.

It does depend on the size of the store - and it's location.

As I say 90 minutes is fine for our Waitrose - not that big with a cafe and in the town centre.

Redx

I agree too, because any figure set is arbitrary and 90 minutes is too short imho

My local Morrisons is set at 3 hours and you can get the CS desk to increase it on their terminal if required, so seems sensible to me

If times were increased there would be less overstays recorded, but to stop day trippers and workers parking all day then 4 or 5 hours would seem ok to me, but not 90 minutes on any retail park or any supermarket car park.

The sensible ones I know of are 3 to 5 hours which is usually long enough for any shopping trip

Simplify the rules and standardise them is what is needed, plus also making the 3 hour rule for a BB holder mandatory on private disabled spaces to bring it in line with the rule for the road - a one size fits all approach to avoid confusion. The car park sign can always allow longer but the 3 hours can be a bare minimum

I told the dclg this in their survey some 4 years ago so it isn't new

The MSA rules should also be changed or scrapped to allow longer stays too, for tired drivers etc, especially after 1800 to say 0800 to allow for overnight drivers

A 2 hour rule on an MSA is ridiculous