Surprised at attitudes

hutless

Hi,

Dont want this to become a men vs women issue here, but I'm actually quite surprised at the general attitude of a number of posters on this site regarding relationships, other halfs and money. Maybe its a generation thing, but it still surprises me.

The way i see it, the division lines between men and women are becomingly increasingly blurred. A women is capable of doing any job a man can do - we have had women prime ministers, chief executives, etc, all being incredibly successful. A man, if he so chooses as one of my friends had, can stay at home and raise the kids and look after the home. A women can go out and have as many one night stands as she want nowadays and whilst some may comment, she wont be judged the way she may have been 30 or more years ago. Guys now are much more in tune with their emotions and open about thier worries. The world has changed, in my opinion for the better, and the sexes are becoming more and more equal. I dont believe its quite there and there are a number of stereotypical issues, such as women driving, which are still around - however, hopefully over time these will get eroded away.

However, there seems to be a number of women who want all the above and more, which I think they should do, but also want to keep some of the 'traditions' that are maybe as outdated as a man thinking a women should stay at home and look after the kids and cook the dinner. Traditions such as the man should financially provide for the family, the women can keep the engagement ring, etc, are all 'traditions' that were created in different times.

For example, I read on this forum about women feeling upset if they pay more than 50/50 in a r/ship. I have read about women taking on men's debts and feeling as if this is wrong. To me, there is no difference between a man taking on a women's debts or vice versa, however, there still appears to be a stigma attached to it. I was willing to take on my ex's debts, i never did as we broke up, but if she was the one I chose to spend the rest of my life with, then no-one would have batted an eye lid if I take on her debt - as the man i'm expected to provide.

Also, the issue of returning the engagment ring upsets me. Most women (I am generalising here from the previous thread) seem to think it is acceptable to keep the ring, sell it and use the money on themselves. Personally, I'm really surprised and disapointed by this. If women want to be treated equally in all aspects of life, which I think they should not expect, but demand, then they have to offer men the same respect. When my sister got engaged, she bought my brother-in-law a watch that was about half the price of her ring. I dont understand why this is not becoming more common - it shouldnt be a case of 'the man buying the women' a gift. It should be about a couple exchanging gifts highlighting the love they have for one another and the committment they are making. If one of them believes that the r/ship is not going to work, it doesnt matter which, then the gifts should be returned - not treated like cash to spite the one who broke your heart!

I hope this hasnt come across as bitter - I really am not. I (think I ) have a very health attitude with women, all my r/ships have been positive and none have ended with animosity on either side - I just think that many of the traditions that some (certainly not all) women cling to begun in a time when men and women weren't considered as true equal and now that hopefully, these barriers are becoming increasingly knocked down, then some of these traditions no longer hold.

ninnoodle

hutless wrote: »

Hi,

Dont want this to become a men vs women issue here, but I'm actually quite surprised at the general attitude of a number of posters on this site regarding relationships, other halfs and money. Maybe its a generation thing, but it still surprises me.

The way i see it, the division lines between men and women are becomingly increasingly blurred. A women is capable of doing any job a man can do - we have had women prime ministers, chief executives, etc, all being incredibly successful. A man, if he so chooses as one of my friends had, can stay at home and raise the kids and look after the home. A women can go out and have as many one night stands as she want nowadays and whilst some may comment, she wont be judged the way she may have been 30 or more years ago. Guys now are much more in tune with their emotions and open about thier worries. The world has changed, in my opinion for the better, and the sexes are becoming more and more equal. I dont believe its quite there and there are a number of stereotypical issues, such as women driving, which are still around - however, hopefully over time these will get eroded away.

However, there seems to be a number of women who want all the above and more, which I think they should do, but also want to keep some of the 'traditions' that are maybe as outdated as a man thinking a women should stay at home and look after the kids and cook the dinner. Traditions such as the man should financially provide for the family, the women can keep the engagement ring, etc, are all 'traditions' that were created in different times.

For example, I read on this forum about women feeling upset if they pay more than 50/50 in a r/ship. I have read about women taking on men's debts and feeling as if this is wrong. To me, there is no difference between a man taking on a women's debts or vice versa, however, there still appears to be a stigma attached to it. I was willing to take on my ex's debts, i never did as we broke up, but if she was the one I chose to spend the rest of my life with, then no-one would have batted an eye lid if I take on her debt - as the man i'm expected to provide.

Also, the issue of returning the engagment ring upsets me. Most women (I am generalising here from the previous thread) seem to think it is acceptable to keep the ring, sell it and use the money on themselves. Personally, I'm really surprised and disapointed by this. If women want to be treated equally in all aspects of life, which I think they should not expect, but demand, then they have to offer men the same respect. When my sister got engaged, she bought my brother-in-law a watch that was about half the price of her ring. I dont understand why this is not becoming more common - it shouldnt be a case of 'the man buying the women' a gift. It should be about a couple exchanging gifts highlighting the love they have for one another and the committment they are making. If one of them believes that the r/ship is not going to work, it doesnt matter which, then the gifts should be returned - not treated like cash to spite the one who broke your heart!

I hope this hasnt come across as bitter - I really am not. I (think I ) have a very health attitude with women, all my r/ships have been positive and none have ended with animosity on either side - I just think that many of the traditions that some (certainly not all) women cling to begun in a time when men and women weren't considered as true equal and now that hopefully, these barriers are becoming increasingly knocked down, then some of these traditions no longer hold.

OK. Your point about women having as many one night stands as she likes - sure, she would not be treated like she would have 30 years ago but in my opinion many people (not all) would still be horrified / look down on her / think something was wrong mentally. Just the way it is.

I think traditions have been there for a reason, and sure, lines have become blurred and sexes more equal - however IMO that doesn't stop the sexes from being biologically different. Just because we're more equal does not mean we're the same. So what if a woman is happy to stay at home and cook, or her husband likes her to? If they're happy then that's great. Usually in most cases you will still find the man is the main breadwinner, so if they want to raise their children at home then it's logical the woman will give up her job / work part time. I don't see this as particularly sexist.

About returning the engagement ring - I feel you're maybe generalising a little here and it's not just women who think this way - many men would choose to think this way too if the boot was on the other foot. Personally if I was bought an engagement ring I would keep it and not return it. I don't think the thought of returning it is the norm. OK maybe if you split up but what's the biggie?

I think many traditions still do hold but they can still sit comfortably in these modern times. I don't think because they *are* traditions that they need to be knocked down. Often there is just simple common sense behind the tradition and it's not pure sexism or whatever.

Shineyhappy

I think a lot of people (men and women) have been on the debt free wanabee board saying that they took on their partners debt and paid it off only for their partner to not learn their lesson and then run up more debt or for a poster to complain that they took a credit card on balanced transfered the debt into their name and then the partner did a runner. So most people on this site will tell people not to pay off debts and definatly not to take on debt for their partner. This is regardless of gender so it is not sexist.

As for an engagement ring, if my OH proposed with a ring I would count that as a gift, unless it was a family one, if the ring was worth 50 pounds or 5000 pounds it would still be a gift. If it was a birthday present would you expect it back if you broke up with someone? I lent an ex 1500 pounds for a fish tank (yes I was that dumb) and I couldnt get it back as he claimed it was a gift and the returning of gifts is up to the receiver. However if I dumped a guy then I would give back any relevent presents (except things like clothes that were valueless and afterall is anyone going to get much from a used M&S dressing gown?) But if he dumped me, should I then give back all the presents he gave me? My ex certainly didnt return my gifts or loans after he cheated on me.

CB1979_2

welcome to the wonderful world of MSE aka Womens Liberation Front aka The World's biggest man hater cult

asea

CB1979 wrote: »

welcome to the wonderful world of MSE aka Womens Liberation Front aka The World's biggest man hater cult

You sound like you have some issues & your comments say more about you than this website

Alikay

As a mum of 2 teenage boys (and a daughter) I can see where the OP is coming from - men sometimes do seem to have a lower value these days...maybe starting to be seen as useless drones while life is organised by strong women. But on the whole, most women still love men, and love the fact that they're different, not just physically, but that they have different qualities that contrast and complement ours.

Regarding stuff like engagement rings, though....well I wouldn't return a gift, and I wouldn't want a gift I'd bought to be returned either. It would've been chosen for the recipient and I'd be hurt if they gave it back....what use would I have for men's clothes, jewellery or whatever? If people bought affordable engagement rings as a token of their love and comittment rather than a huge overblown gesture with too much emphasis on cost, it wouldnt matter so much!

CB1979_2

no issues with me m'lady, i'm just shocked & surprised that out of the numeros females i know, NONE are like any of the evil wenches on here.

granted it seems there's a whole lot more females on here than guys, and we all know that behind every woman's troubles is an evil man.

it just makes me chuckle that just because a few women have had similar experiences then ALL men are the same.

there's very few women on here who actually try to see it from another point of view.

all i seem to see, in the majority is women over-reacting about the smallest things (ie guy pausing tv rather than switching it off!?!?! !!!!!!) then all of a sudden the cult come out say "ahh yeah i agree he was well out of order, cut off his nuts and feed them to him, that'll teach him"

whitewing

hutless,

I did give back an engagement ring. He took all my other jewellry, even birthday and christmas gifts.

I have a joint acct with my new husband to be. Who earns what is immaterial as long as we are working to the same goals. (We have family goals as a long term thing).

I agree about not paying partner's debts as a means to make them understand where they are going wrong. That's a loving action if the relationship's strong.

I love men in general (ahem, not one night stands though). I really love old-fashioned respect; like having the door held open for me. I wouldn't be without my man. Being a man, there is such a different outlook on life which complements my own. As a team we are so much better than two individuals. I will always try to put my husband first, and he me first (he is better at this than I am) and then everything else in our life with follow.

ninnoodle

CB1979 wrote: »

no issues with me m'lady, i'm just shocked & surprised that out of the numeros females i know, NONE are like any of the evil wenches on here.

granted it seems there's a whole lot more females on here than guys, and we all know that behind every woman's troubles is an evil man.

it just makes me chuckle that just because a few women have had similar experiences then ALL men are the same.

there's very few women on here who actually try to see it from another point of view.

all i seem to see, in the majority is women over-reacting about the smallest things (ie guy pausing tv rather than switching it off!?!?! !!!!!!) then all of a sudden the cult come out say "ahh yeah i agree he was well out of order, cut off his nuts and feed them to him, that'll teach him"

Who's generalising now?

April_Bride

I kinda agree with hutless..........

Regarding the engagement ring. I love my engagement ring so much but if my OH and I had split up I would have gave it back. We didn't spend nearly as much money on my ring as the guy in question, as IMO its only a ring...regardless of how much it costs it does not make ur partner any more in love with you because you spent an obscene amount of money on a ring. Personally I think that anyone with decent morals would return the ring. By all means, keep the gifts exchanged throughout the relationship, they may hold happy memories...but an engagement ring is an acceptance to be married "It represents a formal agreement to future marriage" No marriage no ring.

debs66_2

CB1979 wrote: »

all i seem to see, in the majority is women over-reacting about the smallest things (ie guy pausing tv rather than switching it off!?!?! !!!!!!) then all of a sudden the cult come out say "ahh yeah i agree he was well out of order, cut off his nuts and feed them to him, that'll teach him"

i would like to think i am one of the freer thinking women. i am more concerned about general fairness rather than men versus women, and will comment on that basis.

i do often comment on some of these threads because i see a general 'man can do no right' attitude escalating, and occasionally some of the comments get close to the examples above. sometimes the man might be in the wrong, but some women jump in without considering the other point of view.

that said, there are some men who jump in with the 'all these women are out to get us' stance, and i for one don't like to be lumped into that group. i try and see the opposite side of things. i don't want to get tarred with the same brush.