TV Licence article Discussion

Cornucopia

I also found this:

Amazon announced this week it will offer live television channels for the first time in Europe and the UK.

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/cs/media-centre/news/view.app?id=1369783598662#

Which suggests to me that it could be these broadcast channels on Amazon that are the issue, not the live sport.

pphillips

Cornucopia said:

Moneysense said:

I note that the wording on the latest declaration for not having a TV Licence has changed making it impossible not to have the licence if you stream your service and watch on demand. Amazon prime is now mentioned within the listing as licence required but no mention of Netflix. I would suggest someone is trying to cloud the issue by a sneaky play on wording to make it even more confusing.

The whole issue of Amazon Prime Video is a grey area.

TVL would no doubt say that now that Amazon includes content (sport) that is not "on demand" then it is no longer an on-demand service and therefore requires a TV Licence, but I don't think it's as straightforward as that.

I think (at least), if you subscribe to Amazon PV and don't ever watch live sport, then you don't need a TV Licence for that.

I'm curious about TVL's justification over live sport on Amazon, as well, because there are other forms of live video content that are known not to require a TV Licence:  most notably parliamentlive.tv and the radio video feeds such as LBC and Talk Radio.  

I'd also say that the TVL no licence needed "declaration" doesn't mean a great deal, and if anyone feels uncomfortable agreeing to any of TVL's weasel words, then just don't complete it.   It makes little difference either way, and if TVL want to make it difficult for people to help them by completing it, that's their loss.

I think the question is are Amazon a television programme service within the meaning of the legislation. The relevant factors are likely to be whether are they are a regulated broadcaster, have a licence to broadcast and how they their broadcasts can be received by members of the public.

Watchkeeper

A TV licence is required for the installation and/or use of a TV receiver, and that is defined in law:

In Part 4 of the Act (licensing of TV reception), “television receiver” means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any television programme service, whether or not it is installed or used for any other purpose [emphasis mine].

If the purpose of your equipment is something other than receiving/recording so-called "live" programmes then no licence is needed.

Cornucopia

I think that the Amazon complexity shows the need for BBC/TV Licensing to give more detail than the somewhat over-simplified lists that they tend to use at present.

We need to know that an Amazon subscription itself does not require a TV Licence, and that watching the Eurosport broadcast stream does require a Licence.    They also need to say whether the Amazon-branded live sport requires a Licence, too, although I'm of the opinion that it doesn't.

Maybe they could express that in the form of a flowchart, or perhaps just a table of all the various combinations across the major media services?

Watchkeeper

I think the problem is that the BBC would be cutting its own throat if it made it easier for people to stop paying the TV tax,  and is therefore more than happy to obfuscate as much as possible.

Cornucopia

Watchkeeper said:

I think the problem is that the BBC would be cutting its own throat if it made it easier for people to stop paying the TV tax,  and is therefore more than happy to obfuscate as much as possible.

I'm sure that's their motivation.   

Explaining stuff properly to the Public is an art but lots of organisations do a pretty good job (yes, MSE, I mean you).   Not so, TV Licensing, though - and their failings go back years.  

cw18

And NowTV is a mix that means it's also on that list, with a lot more Live content than Amazon Prime I expect.

If you have a Sports Pass in use, then you definitely need a licence as that is Live.  (I don't watch sport - and never have done).

An Entertainment Pass also gives access to Live channels.   My partner uses those at his house as he has a licence.   I don't have one, so I stay away from them and only stream on demand (if I'm watching a current series I normally watch a day or two after it streams Live).

Cinema is a little trickier, as there are no set times when a movie will show.   But I normally only watch one film a week (two at most if I'm off work for a few days), and there are ways of checking when a certain movie is being aired so I can be sure there's no chance I'm doing something that may be seen as requiring a licence.   Use of the Sky+ app is probably the quickest and easiest, and is the way my partner has shown me (he was a Sky customer for years, so had various ways of checking when shows he watched were due to air).

Cornucopia

cw18 said:

An Entertainment Pass also gives access to Live channels.   My partner uses those at his house as he has a licence.   I don't have one, so I stay away from them and only stream on demand (if I'm watching a current series I normally watch a day or two after it streams Live).

Cinema is a little trickier, as there are no set times when a movie will show.   But I normally only watch one film a week (two at most if I'm off work for a few days), and there are ways of checking when a certain movie is being aired so I can be sure there's no chance I'm doing something that may be seen as requiring a licence.   Use of the Sky+ app is probably the quickest and easiest, and is the way my partner has shown me (he was a Sky customer for years, so had various ways of checking when shows he watched were due to air).

It's always wise to be cautious where TV Licensing are involved, but I take a more relaxed approach (or at least I did when I had Now TV).   These days, I wouldn't consider the broadcast schedule when considering what to watch on-demand.  

The legislation also changed (in 2009, I think) to change the emphasis away from a practical time-based definition of the difference between broadcast and on-demand, and now uses more of a technology-related definition.   In other words, you know when you're watching on-demand because you're using an on-demand platform (or more likely, these days the on-demand part of the platform).   

I think we will see more and more of this mixed approach as declining broadcast channels seek new ways of attracting an audience.

muzzaofrilla

I decided to give up the television more than twenty years ago. My hearing was deteriorating and I couldn’t understand the speech, people talking quickly didn’t help. On the last day of the licence, I unplugged it and gave it away. I’d already had the reminder. I sent this back to the address for correspondence with a typewritten letter explaining why I was not renewing my TV licence. I HAD 6 YEARS OF THREATS. In the end I wrote a letter, sent by recorded delivery signed for, threatening legal action against TV Licensing for Harassment. A fortnight later a letter arrives regretting that their communication cased me distress, but adding that a very high proportion of people they contact do actually need a licence. We will contact you from time to time to check if you do need a licence ( not we will contact you to see if you DO NOT need a licence. 

A few years later, one Monday morning, my Jack Russell, Nettle came up to the bathroom with a postcard in her mouth. TV Licensing. I ran downstairs and chased after him. Stripped to the waist, shaving foam. He was slim but 6’ 6” tall? He had parked well down the road. Old, shabby BMW convertible with a tatty roof. He agreed to come back after I told him I was “fed up with this nonsense “. 

Walked in the sitting room. Looked around, oh, he said. Do you want to go upstairs? Or into the old attic bedroom? I might be surreptitiously watching Eastenders up there ( just a massive model railway) one of the reasons I don’t need a telly. I’ve got shortwave radios that pick up stations all around the world. I get news, weather and entertainment from Radio 4. If we needed a radio licence, I’d buy one. I buy lots of books from charity shops and take some back too. I’ve a dog, garden, friends, a same-sex relationship of 23 years. We travel, theatre, restaurant visits. 

All the pensioners refusing to pay the licence now it’s not free. I bet they are still watching.

GIVE IT AWAY!

_vexorg_

Have the rules changed?

This page, www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one , seems to say you need a licence for all channels and even the online video services now, like catchup services, and youtube and amazon