TV Licence article Discussion

EachPenny

I'd appreciate a sanity check by someone other than me (please Cornucopia? ) to make sure what I'm thinking about doing is ok without a TV licence.

I've not had one for around two years and not watched live TV at home for about three. My only 'TV' consumption is watching a few programmes (quite rarely, and mainly F1 highlights, and always after the end of the broadcast) using 'All4' on a home computer via the internet connection.

I was recently given a cardboard box of electrical 'junk' and discovered it contained a TalkTalk youview box (model DN372T).

From what I understand (I've not plugged it in yet) this box allows programmes from online on-demand services (including All4) to be watched on a TV rather than using a computer. It also has a RF input and acts as a Freeview receiver, as well as an internal hard disk so it can work as a PVR.

The question is, if I get my old TV out of the loft and connect the youview box to it, with the youview box's only other connection being via the ethernet port (i.e. no aerial), and only use it for on-demand catch up from ITV, C4, C5 (no iPlayer), then am I correct that this is ok without a TV licence?

I ask mainly as a check that I'm right, but also that I suspect once connected to the internet the box might attempt to 'phone home' and leave a trace of its use ("Am I paranoid?" = 'yes').

As I'm imminently expecting an "investigation" (my two years of 'noTV' is nearly up) I don't want to spoil two-years of honest LLF behaviour for the sake of 'playing' with a new toy, especially as what I want to do I can do on my home computer anyway. But the temptation to play (entirely legally) with an electronic freebie is strong.

As I said, I've not plugged it in yet, so don't know what its capabilities are, nor what apps it might have. If there is a way of deleting iPlayer I'll do that, along with any programmes already recorded on the drive. Is there anything else I would need to to to make sure I'm 100% legal?

Confirmation or otherwise of my thoughts would be much appreciated. I think I'm right, but I'd like to be sure, and hopefully this post might be of value to someone else in the future.

FreeBear

EachPenny wrote: »

IThe question is, if I get my old TV out of the loft and connect the youview box to it, with the youview box's only other connection being via the ethernet port (i.e. no aerial), and only use it for on-demand catch up from ITV, C4, C5 (no iPlayer), then am I correct that this is ok without a TV licence?

You can use it just fine to watch on-demand content. No TV licence required.

It is quite possible that even if iPlayer is installed, it won't work. The BBC has made changes to iPlayer so that some of the older apps no longer work.

As for impending "investigations", I've had multiple notifications of investigations being started over the last three years. Not one has resulted in any action being taken. In fact, I don't even bother opening the letters any more. Just filed close to hand so that I can hand them back should a TVL "inspector" ever call.

Cornucopia

To add to Freebear's comments...

EachPenny wrote: »

I was recently given a cardboard box of electrical 'junk' and discovered it contained a TalkTalk youview box (model DN372T).

From what I understand (I've not plugged it in yet) this box allows programmes from online on-demand services (including All4) to be watched on a TV rather than using a computer. It also has a RF input and acts as a Freeview receiver, as well as an internal hard disk so it can work as a PVR.

I had exactly this configuration (and no TV Licence) for a while. It's entirely okay, although at the time I had it, iPlayer was still permitted.

I ask mainly as a check that I'm right, but also that I suspect once connected to the internet the box might attempt to 'phone home' and leave a trace of its use ("Am I paranoid?" = 'yes').

I'm pretty sure that Youview boxes don't do that. It was always a Sky thing, and I'm not even sure that they do it now.

As I'm imminently expecting an "investigation" (my two years of 'noTV' is nearly up)...

There isn't really an "investigation" as such (but you know that?) The term is being misused purely for marketing purposes. If it really was an investigation, then it would need all sorts of legal controls, RIPA authorisation and the like.

As I said, I've not plugged it in yet, so don't know what its capabilities are, nor what apps it might have. If there is a way of deleting iPlayer I'll do that, along with any programmes already recorded on the drive. Is there anything else I would need to to to make sure I'm 100% legal?

Depending on how old it is, you might find that it is quite slow moving through the menus, starting up and loading the catch-up apps.

I don't think you can add/delete apps from these boxes, so you might want to look at blocking access to iPlayer using your Router or ISP's controls. Alternatively, you might take the view (as I do) that the BBC's decision to require a login to access iPlayer is very handy, since it means that a setup that has never been logged in will be fairly obvious upon inspection. (Such inspection never to be willingly entertained).

EachPenny

FreeBear wrote: »

You can use it just fine to watch on-demand content. No TV licence required.

It is quite possible that even if iPlayer is installed, it won't work. The BBC has made changes to iPlayer so that some of the older apps no longer work.

As for impending "investigations", I've had multiple notifications of investigations being started over the last three years. Not one has resulted in any action being taken. In fact, I don't even bother opening the letters any more. Just filed close to hand so that I can hand them back should a TVL "inspector" ever call.

Thanks FreeBear.

I've already started my collection of "Your noTV notification is due to expire" letters

EachPenny

Cornucopia wrote: »

I had exactly this configuration (and no TV Licence) for a while. It's entirely okay, although at the time I had it, iPlayer was still permitted.

Much appreciated Cornucopia.

Cornucopia wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that Youview boxes don't do that. It was always a Sky thing, and I'm not even sure that they do it now.

My concern was reading that the box does a nightly check to see if any software/firmware updates are available, presumably it does this by contacting a youview server somewhere and in the process will identify itself (i.e. as part of the "do I need to be upgraded?" process) and might give feedback on usage (i.e. which apps are most frequently/never used, what needs updating as the highest priority). Speculation and paranoia perhaps.

Cornucopia wrote: »

There isn't really an "investigation" as such (but you know that?) The term is being misused purely for marketing purposes. If it really was an investigation, then it would need all sorts of legal controls, RIPA authorisation and the like.

Indeed. But I did note on the BBC website that data from iPlayer will be provided to TVL, presumably to decide how [STRIKE]thorough[/STRIKE] persistent to make the "investigation".

Cornucopia wrote: »

Depending on how old it is, you might find that it is quite slow moving through the menus, starting up and loading the catch-up apps.

I'm not sure, but it came from a rental house clearance and is possibly less than a year old (based on the 'go live' date of the router which it came with). I will be experimenting very soon.

Cornucopia wrote: »

I don't think you can add/delete apps from these boxes, so you might want to look at blocking access to iPlayer using your Router or ISP's controls. Alternatively, you might take the view (as I do) that the BBC's decision to require a login to access iPlayer is very handy, since it means that a setup that has never been logged in will be fairly obvious upon inspection. (Such inspection never to be willingly entertained).

I've come to a similar view about app deletion with some googling this afternoon. I still need to explore the maintenance menu though to see if there is anything in that.

My concern here is that if the previous owners have used iPlayer on the box (perhaps even left it logged in?) then there could be a trace... not that a physical inspection would ever be permitted. (but goes back to the question of what the box might tell 'home' on a nightly basis?)

The next step is to see what factory reset options are available to wipe any record/trace of use by former owners.

As an aside, my app research uncovered the fact the box as standard comes with the BBC "News App", which offers in-app live streaming of the BBC News Channel. Curious, I investigated the "News App" further. Although possibly not quite the same thing, I was struck by the fact the app on Google Play boasts of its features, but nowhere (I could find) says that a TV licence is required for using the live BBC News feature. You'd think they would put this in big bold letters somewhere, rather than leaving it to the user to follow a link to a different site and view the "Terms of Use" to find out.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=bbc.mobile.news.uk&hl=en_GB

I assume the user would get a warning further down the line that a licence is needed, but it ought to be up front before you download the app, just as other services have to warn of any future in-app purchases involved.

But once again, thanks for the confirmation regarding the youview box.

Cornucopia

EachPenny wrote: »

My concern was reading that the box does a nightly check...

The reality is that (rightly or wrongly) the BBC does not use any high-tech methods in TV Licence enforcement (at least not yet). The problem for them is that even if such technology were 100% effective at highlighting an evading household (which is a big IF), they would still not have a name to launch a prosecution against.

Hence their efforts are almost exclusively about obtaining confession evidence using the classic "fair or foul" doorstepping operation.

My concern here is that if the previous owners have used iPlayer on the box (perhaps even left it logged in?) then there could be a trace... not that a physical inspection would ever be permitted. (but goes back to the question of what the box might tell 'home' on a nightly basis?)

The next step is to see what factory reset options are available to wipe any record/trace of use by former owners.

I would have thought that a factory reset would be sensible - also make sure that there are no recordings left on the hard drive unless they are clearly very old.

... Curious, I investigated the "News App" further. Although possibly not quite the same thing, I was struck by the fact the app on Google Play boasts of its features, but nowhere (I could find) says that a TV licence is required for using the live BBC News feature. You'd think they would put this in big bold letters somewhere, rather than leaving it to the user to follow a link to a different site and view the "Terms of Use" to find out.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=bbc.mobile.news.uk&hl=en_GB

I assume the user would get a warning further down the line that a licence is needed, but it ought to be up front before you download the app, just as other services have to warn of any future in-app purchases involved.

The information that is published by BBC-TV Licensing is generally very poor - a combination of much that is missing, and much that is inaccurate or partisan. I am in the process of going through the TV Licensing escalation process to the Ombudsman Service on the issue of the BBC/TV Licensing being unwilling to tell me the true legal status of TV Licensing and its enforcement activities. And if it's not prepared to share that with the Public when it's pretty much legally obliged to, then... well...

As far as the detailed need for a Licence is concerned, I generally work to this definition:-

You need a Licence:-

- to watch/record traditional linear UK(*) TV channels using traditional Terrestrial/Satellite/Cable TV reception methods

- to watch the Internet live-streamed equivalent of the above

- to watch/download from BBC iPlayer

(*) TVL say Worldwide, but I can find no justification for this in the legislation, and (predictably) they have refused to provide one.

Who knew that the BBC could be such authoritarian despots when the mood takes them?

cw18

I have iPlayer blocked on my router. It means that visitors can't click through to it on a phone/tablet/laptop that's plugged into the mains, which would be illegal. However, if they want to access it while running said device on battery I can temporarily unblock it for them (I've only had to do that once for a Christmas episode of Dr Who).

EachPenny

Cornucopia wrote: »

I don't think you can add/delete apps from these boxes, so you might want to look at blocking access to iPlayer using your Router or ISP's controls. Alternatively, you might take the view (as I do) that the BBC's decision to require a login to access iPlayer is very handy, since it means that a setup that has never been logged in will be fairly obvious upon inspection. (Such inspection never to be willingly entertained).

Is there an up to date idiot's guide somewhere on how to do this please? I've been looking around and found various bits of information (much of it supplied by you Cornucopia) but a lot seems quite old (before the whole of iPlayer was licenceable) and/or requires an element of trial and error (obviously accidentally accessing iplayer testing the settings is not helpful )

I'd hoped the BBC might have published something.... but as usual they let us down.

Cornucopia

The easiest way is simply blocking everything beyond BBC.co.uk, although this blocks all the news content, too, which doesn't require a Licence.

EachPenny

Cornucopia wrote: »

The easiest way is simply blocking everything beyond BBC.co.uk, although this blocks all the news content, too, which doesn't require a Licence.

Thanks, but I was hoping to keep access to the 'free' parts of the BBC website, especially the news.

I might do some experimenting at a friend's licenced house and then apply the same changes at mine.