TV Licence article Discussion

RumFellow

I used to find the BBC's noTV claim easy, but unfortunately they have now added a list of reasons as to "why you think that you don't need a license?", none of which fully fit my situation....

Please let us know the main reason why you or your organisation don't need a TV Licence. (If there is more than one, please choose the most appropriate reason.)

• Only watch Blu-rays, DVDs or online purchases (e.g. films, TV series)
• Only watch on demand/catch up TV (excluding BBC iPlayer) on any device such as a computer, laptop, tablet, phone etc
• Only watch on demand/catch up TV (excluding BBC iPlayer) on a TV
• Only use a TV for games/consoles
• Covered by a TV Licence at another address
• No TV receiving equipment or devices at the address

I do not own a TV but do possess a desktop and a mobile phone (both of which are now classed as devices). So if I select any of these options I'm a liar!

Cornucopia

RumFellow wrote: »

I used to find the BBC's noTV claim easy, but unfortunately they have now added a list of reasons as to "why you think that you don't need a license?", none of which fully fit my situation....

I do not own a TV but do possess a desktop and a mobile phone (both of which are now classed as devices). So if I select any of these options I'm a liar!

The basic rule is that if you never watch or record TV broadcasts "live" and never use BBC iPlayer to watch/download BBC TV content, then you do not need a Licence. You can watch as much commercial Catch-up/Boxsets/Video-on-demand, DVDs, Videogames as you like and will not require a Licence to do so.

The BBC have seen fit to try to educate the Public and tell them that linear TV/iPlayer can be watched on various devices, which is true, but unless you do actually watch them, you don't need a Licence.

You don't need a Licence just to possess a TV, PC or Mobile (and I think you may have misread option 2 in the TVL list). I think that the list would be better read/written as a list of things that are allowed without a Licence, and then anyone filling in the form could tick as many as apply (or indicate no receiving equipment).

Also, you are quoting from the TVL "No Licence Needed" pages, which provide a registration process that is strictly optional (even though I don't believe it tells you that).

FreeBear

Cornucopia wrote: »

Also, you are quoting from the TVL "No Licence Needed" pages, which provide a registration process that is strictly optional (even though I don't believe it tells you that).

And in doing so, you are giving them your name.

There is no legal requirement to tell them that you do not need a licence, nor do you need to give them your name.

Without a name, they can't take you to court nor can they send you personalised threat-o-grams.

RumFellow

What I am trying to highlight is the fact that in order to progress to the next page of their noTV claim, I would need to select one of these options even though they do not apply.


As a result it is a flawed and unfair process because there is no option for, do not own a TV nor watch on any other device!


The final multiple choice appears to be trying to catch people out.


Regardless, I will not be getting a TV license as I do not possess a television nor have any interest in watching inane drivel on any medium!

Cornucopia

RumFellow wrote: »

What I am trying to highlight is the fact that in order to progress to the next page of their noTV claim, I would need to select one of these options even though they do not apply.

Personally, I wouldn't have worded that information from TVL in the way they have. BUT it is essentially accurate, and I'm struggling to understand why you are finding it difficult to complete. (Assuming you want to complete it, even though you don't have to).

For the benefit of other readers - the No TV process is neither legally-speaking a "claim" or a "declaration". In the bigger picture it is legally and factually worthless - an unnecessary administrative step that the BBC has no justification for within legislation (like so much else of TV Licensing).

As a result it is a flawed and unfair process because there is no option for, do not own a TV nor watch on any other device!

That is (in effect) options 2 or 6. Their issue is that they always word these things from their perspective as enforcers, and never from the the perspective of a member of the Public with no need for a TV Licence. It also helps (as with most bureaucracy) to know what the true legal/practical position is when dealing with TVL (because one of their consistent failings is that they won't tell you).

The final multiple choice appears to be trying to catch people out.

I don't think it's that - and if it were, the simplest thing is not to complete it. I think they are trying to do two things:- 1) to guide/direct people through their process, and 2) to obtain statistical info about who legally Licence-free people are, and what alternative uses they have for AV equipment.

There isn't any way that someone's answer to that question could ever be used against them, and of course the nature of the information is that it could be accurate one day, and immediately out of date (because someone changes their equipment or behaviour) the next. There is no process for keeping BBC-TVL up to date with such changes, nor do they ask that it be done (which gives the lie to their claim that it is necessary).

RumFellow

Only watch Blu-rays, DVDs or online purchases (e.g. films, TV series)

If I select this option I am lying because I do not watch films or TV series on any medium.

Only watch on demand/catch up TV (excluding BBC iPlayer) on any device such as a computer, laptop, tablet, phone etc

If I select this option I am lying because I do not watch on demand/catch up TV on any device

Only watch on demand/catch up TV (excluding BBC iPlayer) on a TV

If I select this option I am lying because I do not watch on demand/catch up TV on a TV

Only use a TV for games/consoles

If I select this option I am lying because I do not own a TV or a console; I play games on my desktop.

Covered by a TV Licence at another address

If I select this option I am lying because I am not covered by a TV license at all

No TV receiving equipment or devices at the address

and if I select this option I am also lying because I have other devices (a mobile phone and the desktop I am using now)!

Option 2 is a false admission to watching programs on a computer (although legally)
Options 6 is a declaration that I own no devices of any kind!

There is no way by this step without stating a falsehood. People who choose option 6 whilst filling in this form on their computer or phone are essentially lying because the obviously have a device.

EachPenny

RumFellow wrote: »

There is no way by this step without stating a falsehood. People who choose option 6 whilst filling in this form on their computer or phone are essentially lying because the obviously have a device.

I get the point you are making - an option should be available to say "I never watch TV on any kind of device" but it is beyond the comprehension of TVL that someone wouldn't watch TV of any kind on any device. There is an inherent assumption in the system that people must want to watch TV and will find a sneaky way of doing it without paying.

Either that, or as Cornucopia points out, they simply don't care (for the purposes of their market research survey) that you have no interest in watching TV.

The simplest solution is not to complete this mini-survey, and as completion of this appears to be a condition of completing the "NoTV" feedback, the consequential outcome I would choose is not to waste any more of my time on it.

If TVL then decide to send you something in the post you can return it (in the reply-paid envelope) and if asked the same questions you have the freedom to supplement their options with "None of the above". :cool:

Cornucopia

RumFellow wrote: »

If I select this option [1] I am lying because I do not watch films or TV series on any medium.

If I select this option [2] I am lying because I do not watch on demand/catch up TV on any device

If I select this option [3] I am lying because I do not watch on demand/catch up TV on a TV

If I select this option [4] I am lying because I do not own a TV or a console; I play games on my desktop.

If I select this option [5] I am lying because I am not covered by a TV license at all

and if I select this option [6] I am also lying because I have other devices (a mobile phone and the desktop I am using now)!

Option 2 is a false admission to watching programs on a computer (although legally). Options 6 is a declaration that I own no devices of any kind!

There is no way by this step without stating a falsehood. People who choose option 6 whilst filling in this form on their computer or phone are essentially lying because the obviously have a device.

Okay, thanks for the additional explanation, I get what you are saying now.

I suppose the issue is what (if anything) TVL say or mean when they ask these questions. I think what they are effectively saying is that you COULD do any of those things without a Licence, and they would like to know which, if any, you do. As we have stated, this form has no legal weight or merit, so you can say anything or nothing without consequence. I think that Eachpenny is correct to suggest that you do that - especially since they are making it so difficult for you to accurately complete it for them.

Alternatively, why not make someone's day in the TVL call centre by ringing them and asking the question you have asked us? After all, they have the power to potentially fix it.

I suppose we could analyse their questions, and suggest an alternative approach.

I would suggest that they introduce the question with one overall statement of the law: you do not need a Licence if you never watch/record TV broadcasts "live", and you never watch/download BBC TV programs from iPlayer. (There are some minor further exemptions that they would usefully have links to).

Then, they could say that it helps them "for marketing purposes" if you tell them which, if any, of the legal options you use ("tick as many as apply").

Those options could then be:-

- DVDs etc.
- Commercial Catch-up on TV
- Commercial Catch-up on PC/Phone/Tablet
- Film/TV streaming service
- Videogames

- None of the above (which is what I think they are trying to get at with their badly worded option 6).

They could follow up "None of the above" with further questions about whether you have a Licence at another address, etc.

I get that companies sometimes have badly thought-through bureaucracy, but the problem for BBC-TVL is that it is linked to criminal law, and therefore needs to be much more robust than it is.

FreeBear

RumFellow wrote: »

There is no way by this step without stating a falsehood. People who choose option 6 whilst filling in this form on their computer or phone are essentially lying because the obviously have a device.

You are getting bogged down in semantics. Simply ignore the question (and the web site) and go out to smell the flowers.

EachPenny wrote: »

If TVL then decide to send you something in the post you can return it (in the reply-paid envelope) and if asked the same questions you have the freedom to supplement their options with "None of the above". :cool:

Dang. They include a prepaid envelope ?
I've just been piling the letters up without opening them in the hope of dumping them on an "inspector" if/when one calls. In the meantime, others I know scribble RTS on the outside and stick 'em back in a postbox.

EachPenny

FreeBear wrote: »

Dang. They include a prepaid envelope ?
I've just been piling the letters up without opening them in the hope of dumping them on an "inspector" if/when one calls. In the meantime, others I know scribble RTS on the outside and stick 'em back in a postbox.

I have to confess to being imprecise in my language and thus being equally incompetent as TVL.

What I intended to say was "...you can return it (if they supply you with a reply-paid envelope) ...."

Having had no communication from TVL for nearly two years I cannot say whether or not they will supply a pre-paid envelope, but I have every expectation that in the near future I may know the answer.