Wibo night storage heaters

harryhound

Well done everyone, I think we have seen off a spammer.

tuckerchas

Sorry to appear argumentative but having read over and over that a £10 argos heater is just as effective is a fundamentally flawed argument. Yes i agree that using the basic laws of physics means that it takes a certain amount of energy to raise the temperature is true and that the two are proportionately linked, but this does not take into account the different properties of materials used. for example it takes much longer to heat storage heater brick than it does to heat a liquid, and the surface area for its dissipation is a major factor.
My point is that although wibo are very expensive it is possible that they are more effective in some environments as are some of the other products on the market, which i might add are considerably cheaper such as kalirel,suka or gabbarron amongst others
If heating was equally effective then every house in the uk would have £10 heaters in every room and argos would be doing very well for itself!
Like anything, look at all the products on the market and dont follow Cardrew as gospel.

Cardew

tuckerchas wrote: »

Sorry to appear argumentative but having read over and over that a £10 argos heater is just as effective is a fundamentally flawed argument. Yes i agree that using the basic laws of physics means that it takes a certain amount of energy to raise the temperature is true and that the two are proportionately linked, but this does not take into account the different properties of materials used. for example it takes much longer to heat storage heater brick than it does to heat a liquid, and the surface area for its dissipation is a major factor.
My point is that although wibo are very expensive it is possible that they are more effective in some environments as are some of the other products on the market, which i might add are considerably cheaper such as kalirel,suka or gabbarron amongst others
If heating was equally effective then every house in the uk would have £10 heaters in every room and argos would be doing very well for itself!
Like anything, look at all the products on the market and dont follow Cardrew as gospel.

You are not following me as 'gospel' but the laws of physics you are questioning.

The amount of heat(energy - BTU) produced by 1kWh of electricity is exactly the same regardless of the type of heating device(leaving out heat pumps)

There are obviously variations in how that heat is delivered(dissipated) into a room. Virtually instantly with, say, a fan heater; or slow release with an oil filled radiator or a storage heater.

The 'instant' heating devices have no residual heat, whilst the slow release heaters take a while to release heat.

However it is an absolutely undeniable fact that a Wibo or Kalirel heater produces no more heat for the money than a '£10 Argos heater'

These hugely expensive Electrical Central heating systems are marketed so that the unwary believe that they somehow produce more heat for your bucks and quite simply they don't.

As for not taking into account "the different properties of the materials used"

They are radiators filled with a substance - water, oil, clay or some 'magic ingredient' - but at the end of the day you get out in heat exactly the same as any other heater. No more and no less.

If people buying these ridiculously priced CH systems bought some £30 fan heaters and oil filled radiators from Argos then we would have some serious money saving.

P.S.
May I ask if you are you involved with selling these systems?

harryhound

A case can be made for radiant heaters.
The warmth of a body is a balance between the heat it is radiating into space and the heating being radiated from space.
The self evident example is the patio heater, it cannot raise the air temperature BUT it can stop the skin getting chilled (coupled with a moderate amount of alcohol to increase blood flow to the underside of the skin) The result is maintenance of a feeling of comfort to extend the season by perhaps 6 weeks in spring and autumn.

That is why our ancestors invented the high backed settle followed by the padded "wing" chair. Pull the seat closer to the toaster, represented by the open fire, while stopping the rear side radiating heat into space and keep off the cold draughts. Enjoy a sort of micro-climate within the seat.

melanie_king

Cardew wrote: »

Why are they more economical?

They cannot give out any more heat for your money than any other form of electrical heating.

Do you not believe that the ASA ruling against the firm was justified?

This forum is full of posts from people recommending electrical heating systems that make the most outrageous claims.

It cannot be said often enough that all forms of electrical heating give out exactly the same amount of heat for your money.

So a £20 Heater from Argos or wherever will produce the same heat as these devices for the same money.

I have spent a bit of time looking into all this since Cardew well and truly disturbed me! I spoke with an experienced heating engineer and he says Cardew is not correct in all his assumptions. He told me a really good comparison is an iron which produces 1kw of heat 100% efficiently but it would hardly heat a room as well as a 1kw radiator. The surface area and design of the unit is of importance as well, so a smaller radiator and without ribs convects and radiates heat less well than a bigger one with ribs, as the ribs also increase the surface area and also help with heat circulation around the room if the ribs are hollowed. He's looked at my mum's Wibo heaters and told me that they are pretty good but yes, were expensive. However he also told me that there are a couple of other manufacturers who have their heating elements embedded inside the blocks which he believes is probably better as there is less oxygen removed from the room with this method.
At the end of the day though my mum's electrical consumption has dramatically decreased which I put down to her not having to use additional heating to back up the storage heaters which by early evening had gone cold and you had to literally predict how warm or cold it was going to be the next day to get maximum efficiency, which is obviously ridiculous. She is now able to exactly control the room temperature for the rooms they're in. I've tried to find some more Wibo heaters or similar second hand but not been successful yet.
Where we live there is no mains gas and bottled gas and oil central heating really is expensive so we're stuck with electric, getting it right is very important to us. So far, so good!

harryhound

My elderly mother thought there was real truth in this rubbish about electrical heating.
Falling asleep in front of her "economical" radiator, she got really chilled in the small hours. Her thickened blood caused a massive stroke and she spent the last 4 years of her life pretty ga ga.
It would probably make more sense to wear the clothing, heated by Li-on batteries, that is coming onto the market.
Does not stop you getting bronchitis though.

Harry

PS Tell you heating friend that if you put a constant 1Kw into a small domestic iron, it would most probably melt.

Cardew

melanie_king wrote: »

I have spent a bit of time looking into all this since Cardew well and truly disturbed me! I spoke with an experienced heating engineer and he says Cardew is not correct in all his assumptions. He told me a really good comparison is an iron which produces 1kw of heat 100% efficiently but it would hardly heat a room as well as a 1kw radiator. The surface area and design of the unit is of importance as well, so a smaller radiator and without ribs convects and radiates heat less well than a bigger one with ribs, as the ribs also increase the surface area and also help with heat circulation around the room if the ribs are hollowed. He's looked at my mum's Wibo heaters and told me that they are pretty good but yes, were expensive. However he also told me that there are a couple of other manufacturers who have their heating elements embedded inside the blocks which he believes is probably better as there is less oxygen removed from the room with this method.
At the end of the day though my mum's electrical consumption has dramatically decreased which I put down to her not having to use additional heating to back up the storage heaters which by early evening had gone cold and you had to literally predict how warm or cold it was going to be the next day to get maximum efficiency, which is obviously ridiculous. She is now able to exactly control the room temperature for the rooms they're in. I've tried to find some more Wibo heaters or similar second hand but not been successful yet.
Where we live there is no mains gas and bottled gas and oil central heating really is expensive so we're stuck with electric, getting it right is very important to us. So far, so good!

Melanie,
I am sorry you were disturbed.

The purpose of posting is not to upset you, but to warn other money savers about these vastly overpriced systems.

I haven't made any assumptions - I have simply stated facts.

Your analogy is quite true - a 1kW iron would not heat a room efficiently because it is not designed to heat rooms. In fact it could never use 1kW of power for more than a couple of minutes.

However let us take a Wibo heater. It is simply a radiator - it radiates heat.

So does a £30 oil filled radiator.

It is absolutely undeniable that a, say, 2 kW Wibo heater produces EXACTLY the same heat for the money(running costs) as a 2kW £30 oil filled radiator.

A ribbed radiator will have a greater area to dissipate the heat - it is the same as having a bigger radiator. It will not give any advantages in cost. If you dissipate heat faster, you will run out of heat faster, or you will need to supply more heat than a smaller radiator.

If you want to produce heat faster and distribute it better than any radiator, get a £30 fan heater, however that has no residual heat.

There is a lot of mystic about heating derived from electricity. All electrical heating is 100% efficient at producing heat. Wibo or Granny's 1/2/3 bar fire.

If you produce a set amount of heat from, say, 1kWh it is the method of distributing the heat that can vary.

There are plenty of cheap heaters that will distribute heat at quicker rate than a Wibo, slower than a Wibo, or at the same rate as a Wibo.

I am surprised that you can come on a Money Saving Website and defend spending £3,500 on 2 radiators on the grounds that 'your Mum is delighted with them'.

I am even more surprised that you continue to imply that they produce more heat for the money than a £30 heater.

tuckerchas

cardrew, no i am not involved in selling any of these products, i am part of an electrical contracting company and so are asked about these systems regularly and have fitted some myself. (Not wibo or suka however)

(i have re-read my post and it does read as if i were having a go at you, for that i apologise.)

my point was merely that it appeared by your posts that you were dismissing electric radiators, and suggesting to the layman that £30 heaters are a suitable alternative to an electrical central heating system .

As these modern heaters are themostatically controlled and interlinked with each other it is more controllable and therefore there is less wasted heat.

i have to agree that some of these companies do specifically target old people and charge extortionate prices for a product which is already on the market for the same money as storage heaters ( £250-350ish per item)

as we are in Cornwall where there is no mains gas, electric heating is commonplace and so we do see many of these sytems by various manufacturers.

now the only advice i can give to anyone who is thinking of changing away from storage heaters to electric radiators is this, get someone who knows what they are doing to check:-

if you have economy 7, is it switching all power over at night or is it just giving power to another consumer unit for storage heaters and immersion.
the reason i mention this is that i see at least once a week a badly, incorrectly or old sytem.

secondly as storage heaters dont actually take 7 hours to heat up it is worth fitting timers to them individually and rather than having all the heaters on at once you can "stagger" them to come on during the night.

Cardew

tuckerchas,

Thanks for a reasoned post.

I have absolutely no axe to grind. I am a Chartered Electrical Engineer so do have some knowledge in this field.

A well controlled electrical heating system, particularly in small properties where, say, a couple are at work all day can make sense. The saving on a gas servicing contract and replacement of a boiler every 10 or so years can be a big factor in overall costs.

In fact I provided a link to a Daily Telegraph article that put forward a similar argument some while ago.

My objection is the implication in adverts that System A or System B has found some 'magic' ingredient to fill a radiator that cuts costs by xx%. Also the prices charged for simple radiators with sophisticated control is unbelievable.

The adverts are designed to mislead those without technical knowledge, and apparently they succeed

As witnessed above to charge £3,500 for 2 radiators is obscene!!

There really are loads of cowboys operating in this field.

My point has always been that the basic equipment for any electrical heating system - the heater - is dirt cheap.

You can buy thermostatically controlled heaters for well under £30, a timer for a tenner, a remote controlled timer for £20.

So by all means get electrical heating, but don't pay £hundreds or £thousands thinking it is cheap to run - cos it ain't!!

netto

russell_church wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of these heaters. They are only sold direct to the householder via a leaflet posted through the door. My very old Auntie has been sold two, and they look to be very expensive.

I have had wibo heaters for 4 years. They are very efficient in the way they heat and have a good climate control system to stop wastage.They are low input storage heaters and hence only use 50% of the wattage of Night storage heaters, with the benefits of storage and temperature control working together. The heaters are better than Night storage. The cost of the system although expensive has proved to be a excellent heating.