Wibo night storage heaters

thechippy

You tell 'em Steve,

This is definately the most economical way to heat your home!
Technology is changing rapidly, the newer systems are much more efficient than those of a couple of years ago.
Gone are the days of a heat pump producing little heat at ambients below 0c. Even at -15 the cop would be around 1.5 and on an average uk nippy day of around 5c, you can still expect a cop of about 3.5.

harryhound

stevehead wrote: »

Well I've cut my Gas Bill from £275 2007 winter quarter to £85 now and cut by Electric Bill from £350 to £220 over the same period. My house is well lit, and is maintained at 22-24 degrees throughout. That's more than a 20% reduction in Carbon emissions from this house. This has been acheived by a combination of
Insulation (Cavity Wall / Loft / Double Glazing / Chimney Cap+Block / Draught Proofing)
Eliminating Waste (LED Lights throughout / Standby Killers / hand washing dishes / closing doors / low energy computing)
Replacing 20 yr old gas boiler with ashp's.
I also drive a Prius. And have 2 electric bikes.
Make an effort people!! .

Hi Steve,

Great to meet someone with real experience of heat pump technology.
I have a real interest as next year I will be renewing the arrangements for heating my detached bungalow, currently 30 year old gravity-feed anthracite. About as carbon intensive as you can get short of burning full price electricity.
I find that we really are in the area where "b u l l s h i t baffles b r a i n s".

It is very difficult to get practical examples and disinterested advice.

I think this web site might sum up the situation pretty accurately:
http://www.nottenergy.com/energy-costs-comparison3
Though there some obvious generalisations in their figures, for example anthracite kilo for kilo gives out about 50% more heat than ordinary coal and four times the heat of wood.

stevehead wrote: »

Re Insulation and draught stripping: Agreed 100% but that's not the topic

I find most people are most proud of their double glazing, totally failing to realise that is is only (say) 10% of their energy loss. The apparent improvement is as much due to getting rid of the draughts from the previous badly fitting openings.

stevehead wrote: »

Humanity has been burning woodforever. If log stoves were a practical form of heating, why have we gone to such great lengths over the last 250 years to replace them? For aspirational country wannabee's only. Can u imaging the 60 million people in Britain burning wood?

Don't quote me but I think the figures for home heat & power in the UK are the equivalent of 60 million tonnes of coal per year. We also have a million tonnes of scrap wood and the potential to harvest another million, if we were to return scraps of neglected woodland to coppice mamagement. Allowing for the low thermal content of wood, I agree there is not a great scope for changing the country's carbon footprint.:rolleyes:
However wood can be cheap or free in "rural" areas and modern wood stove are much more efficient than anything available to our ancestors. A fire is almost "demand" heating and suitable for those times of year when the Heat Pump cannot cope alone.
I also agree it can be a bit of a life style badge, such as having an AGA It is much nicer to sit round a living fire than a heat pump or a TV.

stevehead wrote: »

Heat Pumps are not exotic. There's 1 or 2 in every home in the land (Fridge & freezer). Not rocket science you know.

The theory is pretty simple and I believe the first home in the UK, built round a heat pump, was in 1949 and it was bl**dy freezing in January. Since then there have been many improvements, with each manufacturer claiming their kit has the magic technological edge. The kit is also controlled by "clever" software, so all the parameters have to be set up correctly for the result to be effective and cheap.
There is increasing use of heuristics and I forsee the weather forecast being fed in on a daily basis. The technology is not so "on demand" as gas that "obeys you". A typical 1970's gas installation could turn on and heat the house in about half an hour by pumping in say 15KW. Heat pumps are more a constant "trickle" technology; on all day rather than timed for an hour before you get up in the morning.
It is easier for a cowboy to design heat pump input wrong and very difficult to put it right afterwards, certainly for ground source heat pumps.

stevehead wrote: »

OK then... lets swallow the line that we should all buy a new gas boiler then. They claim 90% efficiency - believe that? They can be, but a lot of the time aren't. These condensing boilers are stuffed with electronics and mechanical devices in a hostile environment - that's exotic! Then there's the servicing costs; the 100 watt pump - I can heat a room for that! I can heat my house for less than the cost of a BG maintenance contract.

Very good point Steve. And were you to let the property you would not be up against the annual hassle and potential rip off of the CORGI gas certification.
As you will have gathered gas is not an option for me, but my dealing on behalf of vulnerable relatives with British Gas do not fill me with confidence.

stevehead wrote: »

If you hit a COP of 3 then you match the cost of using A Rated Gas Heating. Anything more is a bonus.
What we could do with is more user feedback on these forums about just how good these systems really are.
I have NEVER used my old GSH since installing ASHP's. I kept it just in case though... just in case Mitsubishi were lying.
BTW I work in IT, and have no commercial interest in aircon whatsoever.

I agree:T
I'm sure that these members of the forum are still happy with the improvement in their living standards, heat pumps have made:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=4107088#post4107088
:beer:

anthonykeates

Stevehead:

Am very intrigued by the Mitsubishi/Toshiba units you mention, will be doing some research. I'm trying to decide on the best method of re-vamping my heating at the moment.

Poorly insulated 2 bed flat with a large lounge (approx 20ft by 17ft) combined with 10ft high ceilings. No gas, currently on storage heaters but they're not high-powered enough in the main room. Will sort out the insulation 1st (nothing in the roof-space at the moment). Just a quickie about the ASHPs - can they be installed at 1st floor level, and if so do the external units fix to the wall or must be on the ground? If I can work around this (ground level is communal garden in flats so not sure how chuffed downstairs neighbour would be at the unit buzzing away outside her window!) it sounds very tempting.

Thanks for any input.

thechippy

anthonykeates wrote: »

Stevehead:

Am very intrigued by the Mitsubishi/Toshiba units you mention, will be doing some research. I'm trying to decide on the best method of re-vamping my heating at the moment.

Poorly insulated 2 bed flat with a large lounge (approx 20ft by 17ft) combined with 10ft high ceilings. No gas, currently on storage heaters but they're not high-powered enough in the main room. Will sort out the insulation 1st (nothing in the roof-space at the moment). Just a quickie about the ASHPs - can they be installed at 1st floor level, and if so do the external units fix to the wall or must be on the ground? If I can work around this (ground level is communal garden in flats so not sure how chuffed downstairs neighbour would be at the unit buzzing away outside her window!) it sounds very tempting.

Thanks for any input.

The indoor units can be installed anywhere and the outdoor units can go on a wall or at ground level. The noise levels are incredibly low these days - nothing like the noisy rattly units of a few years ago.
They will be a lot cheaoer to run than storage heaters and you will get the benefit of air con in the summer.
Where in the UK are you?

G.

anthonykeates

thechippy wrote: »

The indoor units can be installed anywhere and the outdoor units can go on a wall or at ground level. The noise levels are incredibly low these days - nothing like the noisy rattly units of a few years ago.
They will be a lot cheaoer to run than storage heaters and you will get the benefit of air con in the summer.
Where in the UK are you?

G.

Been reading a bit more on the net, and they certainly do sound like a possibility. I'm in Ashford, Kent - know of anywhere to buy/installers?

Ta.

thechippy

I don't know if I'm allowed to say this on this forum, so, if not I apologise in advance to those who run it!
Anthony, I can give you a quote for supply and install should you be interested. Just pm me.

G.

stevehead

When you guys are ferverently Googling ashp 'facts' be aware that a lot of well meaning sites state COP values that are somewhat behind the curve. Technology have moved forward in the last few years with the introduction of a new refrigerant and rare earth magnet motors. I see figures generally quoted in the 2.5 - 3 range and dismissed as a poor relative of the madly expensive and impractical ground sourced variant.

You will find plenty of equipment for sale offering this level of performance. But... tucked away in a sea of mediocrity you'll find both the Mitsubishi Hyperinverters and the Toshiba Super Daiseikai's delivering a COP of over 5.
I'm sure this isn't the limit - certainly not the carnot limit - and even better performance is expected from this technology.

thechippy

Steve is right.
Technology has moved on and some websites are out of date with cop values. As he said, gshp's are madly expensive and generally not worth the additional expense in the UK climate. Some systems are capable of a cop of 5.7 - 6 these days in ashp format.

G.

richardc1983

Anthonykeates. I live in a victorian house thats converted into flats. Im on the ground floor and it gets very cold. i have tried all sorts of heaters from the halogen heaters which yes do get you warm as you feel the heat as if u was sat in front of a fire, they dont heat the room though and burn nearlly 1500w of electric.

In June I had installed an LG system. Involves 2 indoor units mounted at radiator level (about 4ft long by 2ft high) and the outdoor unit mounted outside. To keep costs down i opted for the units to be connected to one outdoor unit. This outdoor unit has the capacity of providing 8kw of heating spread across the 2 units. There is potential to connect more units if u wanted to however the 8kw would be spread across all the units. I opted to have 2 3.5kw indoor units. One in the lounge one in the bedroom.

I rarely have to put the bedroom unit on unless I have been out all day and the system has been turned off. One unit alone is enough to heat my whole flat, high ceilings, large rooms, very poor insulation.

Currently sat here and outside temp is 0.5C and the unit is only using 1.15kw an hour to heat the whole flat! It is outputing much more heat than the electric it is using.

bear in mind u plug a 2kw electric heater in, it will prob heat the room that ur in if you keep the door and curtains shut. Now i leave all my doors open in the hallway etc to let the air circulate and the rooms are all even temperature.

Current living room temp 22.4, hallway 21.2, bedroom 20C.

They are really the way forward, and in summer I have air conditioning too and the units use even less in summer. Perhaps 700watts to cool the whole flat!

Amazing technology! OUtdoor unit which is the noisiest part is very very quiet. I would say its the same level of noise of a boiler flue!

anthonykeates

thechippy wrote: »

I don't know if I'm allowed to say this on this forum, so, if not I apologise in advance to those who run it!
Anthony, I can give you a quote for supply and install should you be interested. Just pm me.

G.

Quite understand, didn't mean to put you in an awkward position!