Beware of E4B contract

frankman

lordie wrote: »

What is the exact date your new supplier has given you for changeover? If it is any date prior to 06/08/2008, then their objection is illegal !!! Cancel your DD immediately and threaten them with legal action. You should also contact Energywatch as they are finally taking note of all the complaints against E4B and are set to take action against them.

The date that my new supplier wanted to take over was the 31st July. I saw my barrister today who is going to write to them, and try to resolve the issue.

He does believe that clause 9:11 is a legal ground to withold payment.

Does E4b take any notice of resolution letters, or do they play ignorance??

Waterwalker

Hello Frankman,
Sorry to interupt, I sent a letter to them to resolve the issue months ago, (which would have been fair to both sides) they replied they could not accept, no reason, just that it was not acceptable.
I can send you a copy of any corrisponance you wish if you think it will help you. I have tried a few times to resolve, they seem uninterested.

My solicitor is now offering mediation, I have no answer yet.

My opinion is in the thread.

I would like to help if possible

joleyrocket

E4B are an absolute disgrace where is the moral fibre of the people who run this racket I think back in the 50's and 60's they called this the long con. They gave me no valid reason for rejecting EDF energy's application to supply our electricity, how can this be legal.

lordie

joleyrocket wrote: »

E4B are an absolute disgrace where is the moral fibre of the people who run this racket I think back in the 50's and 60's they called this the long con. They gave me no valid reason for rejecting EDF energy's application to supply our electricity, how can this be legal.

Hi Joleyrocket,

Best advice is to cancel your DD immediately and contact Energywatch with your complaint. They have multiple ongoing complaints regarding E4B`s failure to allow their customers to go elsewhere after their first year`s contract is up.
E4B must know by now that their scam to trap people into an expensive rollover contract has been sussed. Cancelling your DD is the best way of fighting back, as it is most unlikely that they will take matters further.

BusinessEnergyBroker

Hi All,

I have just stumbled across this thread whilst looking through the site regarding other issues and I feel that a number of facts may need confirming.

Please read all of the post before switching off (especially lordie and waterwalker) apologies if it goes on.

Firstly you may be able to tell by my username what my profession is. I am not here touting for business as we have plenty of this and current market conditions are driving it. If people want advice in general they can pm me or if its an open question I will answer it in the forums.

Secondly energy brokers in general are getting a bad reputation because of the many rogue "brokers" in the industry who are (and its already been pointed out) trying to get the most commission for the sale of a contract, rather than offering impartial advice.

This article is not telling anyone anything that they shouldn't have known already.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1055570/Fuel-giants-rig-market-business-paying-secret-commission-independent-brokers.html

I am not on a crusade for brokers or suppliers here however I can state as a broker that my clients are treated no differently to members of my family that also use our service. If only all brokers had the same integrity then I probably wouldn't be posting this.

I would like to ask though why anyone believes that energy brokers shouldn't make commission for introducing a client when "introducer fees" are common place in almost every business environment in the UK?

I do agree though that people will be misled by brokers because of the commissions

Take the previously mentioned E4B for example. I can reveal that top level brokers will receive the following.

4 year contract sale - 20% of customer annual spend (payable for one year only) e.g. a customer spending £5000 per year returns a contract commission of £1000. This is paid within a number of weeks of a successful transfer.

3 year contract sale - 9% of customer annual spend
2 year contract sale -7.5% of customer annual spend
1 year contract sale -7.5% of customer annual spend

In addition to the individual commissions suppliers will often pay volume bonuses.

Are "brokers" influenced by the commissions? Absolutely, however being as brokers are very influencial in the energy market then a supplier needs to either offer rock bottom prices or pay high commissions, if they want to win new business. The suppliers that do not, are seeing their market share drastically reduced.

These are facts.

Our company have not placed business with E4B for the past 5 months. This has nothing to do with the anything other than the prices that they have issued to all brokers.

As for the 7 day clause that E4B have in their contract, that much of this thread seems to revolve around.

Waterwalker quoted

I sat in front of the sale's man with two witnesses, stated that I only sign 12 month contracts, he filled in the form for 12 months, I asked is there any problems changing, he replied NO as long as give sufficent notice. He didi not explaid about the VERY IMPORTANT 7 day clause which was pertinant about the contract. This is called MIS-REPRESENTATION it is illegal.

Do you usually sign documents without reading T's and C's?

The salesman concerned cannot be accused of mis representation in this instance unless you directly asked him a question regarding clause 4.3. As a customer signing any purchase document, whether it be for a car, mortgage or electricity contract the terms and conditions are there and they should be read.

E4B have included this not to take advantage of the customer (although this is ultimately the outcome) but to take advantage of other suppliers incompetence.

And believe me the suppliers are very incompetent.

E4B have done nothing wrong in Lordie's case. The problem was one that Scottish Power created due to their own incompetence and inability to apply for the correct contract start date (I assume that the broker submitted all of the relevant information correctly). Its for this very reason that we have found it necessary to take out a very large level of indemnity cover in case a client wishes to sue us for other parties mistakes.

I have been a broker for 9 years and I can clearly state that E4B are by far the most efficient supplier in the industry. The ethics of the 7 day transfer window may be in question by customers, but I return to the earlier point of reading the T's and C's. Whether the account is arranged correctly (budget plan amount) will depend on the information you give the broker or the agent dealing with the contract at the time of agreement.

If this is done correctly then problems are rare.

We have thousands of customers many that are supplied by E4B and to date we have received just one complaint. I wish I could say the same for the likes of British Gas Business, Npower or Eon.

People seem to forget that contracts terms are drawn up by a legal team representing the companies. Waterwalker mentions clause 9.11. In my opinion this is pretty water tight and self explanitory in conjunction with clause 4.3.
I wish you and your solicitor good luck with your fight based on this approach. E4B may back down as they did in Lordies case however it may just be a battle of wills and they may wish to minimise any negitive publicity.If they ultimately wish to drag you through the courts I know which horse I would be backing.

This doesn't mean that I endorse the tactics employed by E4B just that I understand why they do it.

I would also like to comment on this by waterwalker

E4B is only a small company, turn over (sales) of just over £1.8m

Quite right that E4B are considered a small company however I can confirm that my company alone provided them with enough sales in each month of 2007 to turn over 5 times that amount. E4B have in the region of 40 - 50 thousand customers. If each customer spends £1000 pound (the average will be about double that) then turnover would be in the region of £40 -£50 million.

Quoting 1.8 million is just ridiculous when many brokers are turning over in excess of that.

What I can tell you is that I have an almost exact replica of lordie's case to deal with at the moment.

The new account was arranged with Scottish Power at the end of the E4B contract however Scottish Power totally failed to process the application and didnt attempt to make the transfer. We realised the problem was taking place two weeks before the 7 day window closed. This still gave us enough time to pull strings so we agreed new terms with EDF Energy as they have a speedy registration process.

They too failed to process the contract.

The result of this is that the client will be over £17600 worse of as a result of the contract rollover with E4B. We are of course expecting full compensation from Scottish Power for this as it is enitirely their fault that this situation has arisen. After speaking with other brokers it appears that these are certainly not isolated cases as far as Scottish Power are concerned.

I will post updates to inform of the success we have (its certainly expected) and the way that we achieved it.

If anyone wants specific industry insider information then pm me.

BusinessEnergyBroker.

lordie

BusinessEnergyBroker wrote: »

Hi All,

I have just stumbled across this thread whilst looking through the site regarding other issues and I feel that a number of facts may need confirming.

Please read all of the post before switching off (especially lordie and waterwalker) apologies if it goes on.

Firstly you may be able to tell by my username what my profession is. I am not here touting for business as we have plenty of this and current market conditions are driving it. If people want advice in general they can pm me or if its an open question I will answer it in the forums.

Secondly energy brokers in general are getting a bad reputation because of the many rogue "brokers" in the industry who are (and its already been pointed out) trying to get the most commission for the sale of a contract, rather than offering impartial advice.

This article is not telling anyone anything that they shouldn't have known already.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1055570/Fuel-giants-rig-market-business-paying-secret-commission-independent-brokers.html

I am not on a crusade for brokers or suppliers here however I can state as a broker that my clients are treated no differently to members of my family that also use our service. If only all brokers had the same integrity then I probably wouldn't be posting this.

I would like to ask though why anyone believes that energy brokers shouldn't make commission for introducing a client when "introducer fees" are common place in almost every business environment in the UK?

I do agree though that people will be misled by brokers because of the commissions

Take the previously mentioned E4B for example. I can reveal that top level brokers will receive the following.

4 year contract sale - 20% of customer annual spend (payable for one year only) e.g. a customer spending £5000 per year returns a contract commission of £1000. This is paid within a number of weeks of a successful transfer.

3 year contract sale - 9% of customer annual spend
2 year contract sale -7.5% of customer annual spend
1 year contract sale -7.5% of customer annual spend

In addition to the individual commissions suppliers will often pay volume bonuses.

Are "brokers" influenced by the commissions? Absolutely, however being as brokers are very influencial in the energy market then a supplier needs to either offer rock bottom prices or pay high commissions, if they want to win new business. The suppliers that do not, are seeing their market share drastically reduced.

These are facts.

Our company have not placed business with E4B for the past 5 months. This has nothing to do with the anything other than the prices that they have issued to all brokers.

As for the 7 day clause that E4B have in their contract, that much of this thread seems to revolve around.

Waterwalker quoted


Do you usually sign documents without reading T's and C's?

The salesman concerned cannot be accused of mis representation in this instance unless you directly asked him a question regarding clause 4.3. As a customer signing any purchase document, whether it be for a car, mortgage or electricity contract the terms and conditions are there and they should be read.

E4B have included this not to take advantage of the customer (although this is ultimately the outcome) but to take advantage of other suppliers incompetence.

And believe me the suppliers are very incompetent.

E4B have done nothing wrong in Lordie's case. The problem was one that Scottish Power created due to their own incompetence and inability to apply for the correct contract start date (I assume that the broker submitted all of the relevant information correctly). Its for this very reason that we have found it necessary to take out a very large level of indemnity cover in case a client wishes to sue us for other parties mistakes.

I have been a broker for 9 years and I can clearly state that E4B are by far the most efficient supplier in the industry. The ethics of the 7 day transfer window may be in question by customers, but I return to the earlier point of reading the T's and C's. Whether the account is arranged correctly (budget plan amount) will depend on the information you give the broker or the agent dealing with the contract at the time of agreement.

If this is done correctly then problems are rare.

We have thousands of customers many that are supplied by E4B and to date we have received just one complaint. I wish I could say the same for the likes of British Gas Business, Npower or Eon.

People seem to forget that contracts terms are drawn up by a legal team representing the companies. Waterwalker mentions clause 9.11. In my opinion this is pretty water tight and self explanitory in conjunction with clause 4.3.
I wish you and your solicitor good luck with your fight based on this approach. E4B may back down as they did in Lordies case however it may just be a battle of wills and they may wish to minimise any negitive publicity.If they ultimately wish to drag you through the courts I know which horse I would be backing.

This doesn't mean that I endorse the tactics employed by E4B just that I understand why they do it.

I would also like to comment on this by waterwalker



Quite right that E4B are considered a small company however I can confirm that my company alone provided them with enough sales in each month of 2007 to turn over 5 times that amount. E4B have in the region of 40 - 50 thousand customers. If each customer spends £1000 pound (the average will be about double that) then turnover would be in the region of £40 -£50 million.

Quoting 1.8 million is just ridiculous when many brokers are turning over in excess of that.

What I can tell you is that I have an almost exact replica of lordie's case to deal with at the moment.

The new account was arranged with Scottish Power at the end of the E4B contract however Scottish Power totally failed to process the application and didnt attempt to make the transfer. We realised the problem was taking place two weeks before the 7 day window closed. This still gave us enough time to pull strings so we agreed new terms with EDF Energy as they have a speedy registration process.

They too failed to process the contract.

The result of this is that the client will be over £17600 worse of as a result of the contract rollover with E4B. We are of course expecting full compensation from Scottish Power for this as it is enitirely their fault that this situation has arisen. After speaking with other brokers it appears that these are certainly not isolated cases as far as Scottish Power are concerned.

I will post updates to inform of the success we have (its certainly expected) and the way that we achieved it.

If anyone wants specific industry insider information then pm me.

BusinessEnergyBroker.

First of all. I wish you the best of luck trying to get any success going after Scottish Power. You haven`t a chance, believe me. I only wanted £600 in compensation and they just laughed. Do you really think they are going to stump up £17600?

Secondly, this was never a crusade against brokers. Although mistakes were made by my broker at Energyadviceline.org, he did his level best to sort things out, even paying me the level of compensation that I asked for.

Finally, you imply that E4B have done nothing wrong hiding behind their shady T & C`s. However you are not aware of the numerous companies who had legitimate changeovers blocked by E4B. I have been sent alot of very damning information from E4B customers who were stopped from transferring without valid reasons. They had kept to all the timescales set out by E4B and yet were still blocked. I have seen for myself the paperwork regarding Waterwalker and believe me, he has a rock solid case should it ever get to court. In his case, E4B have not got a let to stand on and they know it. It would open the floodgates for everybody else worried about the costs to take them to court, knowing that they have a legitimate case. I would imagine that OFGEM would impose a huge fine aswell.

A simple phonecall to Energywatch will confirm which company has received the most complaints when it comes to blocking of transfers......E4B.

BusinessEnergyBroker

With all due respect we are experianced in obtaining compensation for clients and have done this on many occasions. As I said I will post the result later and how we acheived the successful outcome, regardless of the length of time it takes.

I was more interested in your case than waterwalkers as its almost an exact replica of the one I am dealing with. Interesting though that you say your broker made a mistake and has paid compensation.

Ours is different as all the mistakes were made by Scottish Power. I dont expect that the customer will take action against us yet as its too early however if they do then we will just counter sue Scottish Power.

Of the hundreds of customers that we have placed with E4B and then subsiquently moved away at the end of contract. Only two have have failed to transfer away. One of these was a relatives business supply and the other is the Scottish Power case in question.

Both times the potential new supplier was at fault.

The reason for the successful transfers has been due to following the correct proceedures. If any one out there with this E4B problem has followed all of the proceedures correctly (recorded delivery letter or copy of email to terminate) and done it in the correct timescale then E4B wont have a leg to stand on and will rightly be dragged through the courts and lose cases.

What I can reiterate is that many customers do not read the T's and C's or correspondance that suppliers send at renewal times. See link below.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1096105

I believe that most of the complaints will have arisen because of not acting and realising this when its too late rather than being genuine complaints against a supplier being obstructive.

Again E4B are taking advantage of other suppliers being poor and this directly results in the customer being p****d off with E4B rather than the party that they should be.

DS-2

BusinessEnergyBroker - please tell a consistent tale.

You are claiming that you have only had 2 problems moving customers away from E4B.

You are claiming that E4B's 7 day window takes advantage of other supplier's incompetence.

You ask us to believe that the [other ?] suppliers are very incompetent.

Yet you also claim that only twice, out of hundreds of attempts, did the other suppliers get it wrong with your clients.

That doesn't sound very incompetent to me, or are you taking the credit for that success rate?

You've made it clear that you are a "price led" broker. That's an easy position to be in. Sell the lowest price and hang the consequences if the customer is going to be hamstrung when it comes round to trying to move to another contract. There is nothing ethically superior in selling the customer the lowest price, even if that is what they've asked for, unless you are at least prepared to tell them what the downside of the lowest price is ie. a chance that you will be tied into a high renewal price if the incompetent suppliers you are transfering to doesn't hit the 7 day registration window.

See - that's where your tale loses consistency. You call the other suppliers "very incompetent", but don't tell the customer what that incompetence could mean for them if they want to leave E4B at the end of their contract.

Just because E4B have a 7 day registration window in their standard T&Cs, it doesn't make it reasonable and it doesn't make it legally enforceable. I wait with baited breath to see a test case.

When the customer has done everything within their power to correctly go with another supplier it would (in my view) be bad law to hold a customer responsible for the vagaries of the utility industry.

BusinessEnergyBroker

Hi Ds2

Interesting comments.

You are claiming that you have only had 2 problems moving customers away from E4B.

I claim to only have had two problems as this is 100% correct. This doesnt mean that other people havent experianced probems of a greater magnitude.

You are claiming that E4B's 7 day window takes advantage of other supplier's incompetence

Yes E4B are taking advantage of other suppliers incompetence. They are fully aware of the poor registration systems and outdated software that other suppliers operate with. This is 100% FACT

You ask us to believe that the [other ?] suppliers are very incompetent.

If you spent a day in my office listening to the calls that I have to make you would definetely agree. Its just that some are more incompetent than others.

Yet you also claim that only twice, out of hundreds of attempts, did the other suppliers get it wrong with your clients.

No, I said that only twice when trying to move accounts away from E4B did other suppliers get it wrong. Suppliers such as British Gas, Eon, Edf Scottish Power etc get it wrong often when registering new accounts and we often have to chase the registration of supply.

This is something that has not been necessary when sending new accounts to E4B previously as I have previously stated.

I have been a broker for 9 years and I can clearly state that E4B are by far the most efficient supplier in the industry

Having dealt with many thousands of accounts, and having dealt with all of the supply companies I think that I am justified in stating this.

You've made it clear that you are a "price led" broker. That's an easy position to be in

We are a price led broker because we offer a full support service to all of our clients as we do not expect them to have to deal with a problem as and when one arises. This does therefore essentially eliminate / customer supplier problem as it becomes a broker / supplier one.

See - that's where your tale loses consistency. You call the other suppliers "very incompetent", but don't tell the customer what that incompetence could mean for them if they want to leave E4B at the end of their contract.

Firstly I stated suppliers are incompetent, not suppliers other than E4B. Secondly never make assumptions. You don't know me or how I operate my business. All of our customers are informed of the most important clauses within the specific contracts that they choose. We have had many customers not take the offer that E4B have available, purely because of clause 4.3 (the 7 day one)

Just because E4B have a 7 day registration window in their standard T&Cs, it doesn't make it reasonable and it doesn't make it legally enforceable. I wait with baited breath to see a test case.

I quoted in my earlier post.

The ethics of the 7 day transfer window may be in question by customers, but I return to the earlier point of reading the T's and C's. This doesn't mean that I endorse the tactics employed by E4B just that I understand why they do it.

You quoted

When the customer has done everything within their power to correctly go with another supplier it would (in my view) be bad law to hold a customer responsible for the vagaries of the utility industry.

I quoted in my earlier post.

If any one out there with this E4B problem has followed all of the proceedures correctly (recorded delivery letter or copy of email to terminate) and done it in the correct timescale then E4B wont have a leg to stand on and will rightly be dragged through the courts and lose cases.

I hope this clears up the "inconsistencies"

DS-2

Thanks for the reply BusinessEnergyBroker.

First, if I have drawn the wrong conclusion about how you do conduct your business, then that is your fault for not stating previously that you advise your clients of such clauses. You have defended the "salesman" who didn't draw attention to the possible problems with moving away from E4B at the end of a contract. In fact you appeared to place an emphasis on the customer having a responsibility to read the T&Cs.

Given that you did not distance yourself from that sales approach and that you also appeared to condone the salesman's "less than candid" answer to a direct question, you tarred yourself with the same brush. Are you now saying that you don't condone those sorts of approaches used by brokers or are you saying those sorts of approaches are ethical?

Your reply, "No, I said that only twice..." does not make any sense. You are not disputing the facts I stated, but you are saying that I am wrong... The point I was emphasising is that if the E4B window is so onerous and the other suppliers are "very incompetent" I would have expected you to have had more than 2 instances of failing to move a customer away from E4B. What you were saying does not stack up, in my view.

Also, if I might add, your reply to my post has many Quote boxes, none of which are attributed and not all of them are mine. It would be appreciated if you would unjumble that mess to make it easier for the casual reader unpick who said what.