Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer

orlao

I see your point Spendit....what you call CMs methods, I call understanding my animals:beer: I have no problem with my dogs seeing me as "Boss" ( I loathe the pack leader mentality, Sorry) and there are very distinct rules that I see as essential for a peaceful household.When I think CM I think of the alpha roll and attempting to train the dog without actually training the owner properly who, after all is usually the root of the problem. I still believe that dogs (and children:p ) do best when they have clear consistant boundaries and are treated fairly in the way they understand. If they have nervous owners for instance, surely it's up to the owner to change their behaviour before they can expect the dog to change theirs?

I'm very lucky in that I grew up in a household that had a variety of pets and a mother that was animal mad without being over sentimental IYSWIM. Most of the animals we had were rescues (except the dog that my parents got a wedding present, says it all really:rotfl: :rotfl: ) so we were always animal savvy even as small kids, knowing not to pull pets around, what the house rules for animals and us were and if we annoyed a cat or dog and got nipped or scratched we were told if it was our own fault and why. We were probably the only people in a 3 bed semi who had a pet lamb at one point. We also had horses that lived on a working farm so learnt at a very early age that you had to be both cautious and confident to handle large animals safely.....no alpha rolls on a horse that weighs many times more than you:D

I see a lot of people now who have no understanding of animal psychology often because they didn't have the experience of animals in the past but sadly they don't make any effort to understand, they just want a quick fix.
Funnily enough, one of the best potential animal handlers I know is only 4 1/2...with attitude but also empathy she is very good with them both horses and dogs (never unsupervised of course) she can get them to listen to her in a way that many adults would envy.

Spentit_3

pboae wrote: »

I know it's still often taught that way, but it's lazy training. Encouraging people to keep the dog in a down by force (ie. it physically cannot get up because you are standing on the lead), is just sloppy practice. If the dog were properly trained it wouldn't be neccessary because the dog would stay there on command. It also means the dog can only be held in a down when it's within a couple of feet of the owner. What happens when they want it to down at a distance? (A solid emergency down is one of the most important commands to teach a dog that is allowed to run off lead).

Aside from the ethics of manhandling dogs, owners ought to be aiming to be able to get their dogs under control instantly and without needing to touch them. A good training class should teach that. Cutting corners by using restraint instead of commands leaves the owner reliant on the restraint, and vulnerable if they can't use it for some reason.



That's an interesting comment, first I should say that you couldn't do it to my dog. By 'putting' him into a down, I *think* you mean physically pushing them down (I am not 100% sure on that though), probably by pressing on their haunches or above their hocks until they are forced to sit/down. If you did that to my dog it would cause him a great deal of pain and quite possibly cripple him, due to his spinal injuries.

Plus harsh training using a collar as restraint (with or without a lead) is what usually causes collar shyness in the first place. It would be madness to try and use it with a dog that was already collar shy.

However, I don't think that's what you meant (and again I am putting words into your mouth here, so please do correct me if I am wrong). I think you meant that you would not attempt to manhandle a dog big enough and bolshy enough that it might fight back. It's the same reason why most of the trainers I spoke to initially refused to work with him, they knew their supposedly one-size-fits-all approach wouldn't work and had nothing else to offer.

It saddens me that owners are left in that position by trainers, and it infuriates me that trainers do it. If their methods were valid (and safe) they would be suitable for dogs of any size and temprement, not just ones that are small enough and weak enough to bully.



Why would it see it as dominance, when it's not normal canine behaviour? In wild dog packs, when adequate food is available, the alpha animals don't eat first, they all eat together. When food is scarce pups eat first. Once a dog has food, then it is allowed to try and defend it, regardless of status.

Nor would an alpha animal go through a 'doorway' first (in that something like walking through a gap in boundary, out into an open area is about the closest natural equivalent to a doorway), then the alphas would hang back and one of the lower dogs would scout ahead first.

My dog does as I ask because he knows it is more rewarding for him to do so, than not to. Partly because he wants to please me, after all it's their loyal devoted natures that make them such lovely pets, and partly because he has been trained to know that doing as he is asked = reward, and not doing it = nothing.

The secret is to set the situation up so that the dog wants to do the same thing as you want it to do, rather than finding ways to force it to do something it doesn't want to do.

Sorry I'm used to this quote thing yet, I don't really need to quote your whole post.

Just to make it clear, and then I won't go for further discussion as I have given my opinion on CM and just want to clear up any misunderstanding about the dog training methods we have discussed regarding my dogs.

Down and foot on collar if the dog is excited, or needs to settle down quickly for whatever reason. No harm to the dog and possible situation avoided. The same technique used if the dog displays a dominant behaviour such as peeing up someones leg or lunging at another dog. (my dogs have never done that, I'm just giving an example)
Separate training of down and stay comands, down at a distance etc, hand signals etc.

I have taken on board your ideas about dog psycology. If you are happy that it works for you that's fine, I am happy with what works for me and that is keeping my dogs well exercised, not so much 'reward' based training now although I never stop rewarding the recall and pack leadership.

Raksha

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour position statement on 'Dominance' - http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf

Sometimes a foot on a lead is necessary to prevent the animal making a mistake ie getting up and wandering around, if you don't put a foot on the lead, you could be setting the animal up to fail in the early days of training. However, once the behaviour has been learnt, there should be no need for a foot on the lead.

ohwell

pboae wrote: »

heccus, I can't imagine what shows you've been watching then. That is pretty much the only techinque CM has. Here's a a random youtube link for you. Watch it WITHOUT the sound first.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gwFeSlsjFHA

He holds the dog off the ground by a choke collar, and pins her down by her neck. Watch it closely and you will see she isn't jumping up (which is how many people see it initially) he is hauling her up by the choker around her neck. At the very least she is going to have a bruised neck and throat after this, at worse he could break her neck.
Come on, this is a pit bull we are talking about. Have you ever felt the muscle on a pit bulls neck. Look again, he is using the lead, not a choke chain, around Emily's neck. alot thicker and distribute the pressure. You will have a very hard job to break a pit bulls neck. He is not hauling her up by her neck either. she is wanting to get to Daddy, not to meet him and say how you doin, but to say I am unhappy with you near me and will use my fight instict to sort this situation out.

When he pins her, don't be under any illusion as to how hard he is pressing to keep her down either. He makes it look like it's barely a touch, but you can see him press his whole weight on her. By the time she's still her eyes are rolling and she's frothing, both indicators of severe stress.
Pit bulls, like staffies, will keep going untill they drop, and that is what you are seeing here. Emily has gone through a huge amount of energy and is ,rightly, knackered. This gives ceaser an easier job of re habilitating her. She is more likely to react more calmly now she has most of her aggression out.

Yes it's true that other dogs do do this (roll a dog and pin it on it's back) but only if they intend to kill it. So it's like holding a gun to a person's head if they don't do as they are told.

On top of all that, the dog wasn't even being aggressive in the first place, (as above )she's showing frustration, but also showing signs that she wants to greet the other dog, not kill it. What she needs is the chance to learn some meet and greet manners, (this is what Ceaser is teaching her )not to be yanked around and pinned to the floor.

He also set the situation up by having the other dog walk straight up head on. He could have avoided that and gone straight into parallel walking, starting at a distance and then closing the gap. But then he wouldn't have had a chance to manhandle the dog, and that would have made for a boring TV show. not at all. He does do that with alot of dogs, but as he states, she is in the red zone. In his books he actually states that she is one of the worst cases. You cannot tip toe around. He needed to stage the situation so he can help rehabilitate her.

It's a pity it finishes when it does as well. I'd like to have seen more of the walking afterwards. As always 'Daddy' is being very submissive, avoiding eye contact with the other dog, ears back, etc. All CMs talk about Daddy being a dominant dog is BS, everything about his posture and body language says appeasement. If you had watched the actual programe you would have seen that Emily went back to his and spent 6 weeks with 30 or so other dogs..... All of which seem to love and trust him as he is the top dog and they dont have the huge weight of deciding which direction to go in on a walk or who is allowed to come in or what others are permitted to do. they can relax knowing that some one else can deal with that. They can just be what they are. A dog. Live for that day..

callywally

I have just watched the video of emily with cm.
First the lead he is useing is acting like a choke chain as he has threaded the loop handle through to make a noose and is holding the lead at the clip end.
Yes staffies do have very strong necks which should tell you how hard cm is pulling on that lead and he is almost strangleing that dog, he is holding the noose right at the top of the dogs neck which would be cutting of the dogs air supply causing the dog to panic even more, once again as staffies are very strong and determined dogs emilys reaction should tell you how hard she is being held on the lead.
The beautiful sigh cm describes is emily struggleing to breathe not relax in fact had he continued much longer she would have died. Look at her mucus membranes.
In my opinion it is time this man was stopped and people saw the suffering he is causeing. I wont be posting about him any more as its makeing me very angry. Im in the red zone if you like!

foreign_correspondent

Right, I have just watched that clip quite carefully... I am not a fan of CM but have not seen a lot of his stuff before, so here are my observations.

OH who has worked on film and animations spotted an edit at about 2.20 between CM getting the dog on the floor, the camera flicks away, then returns to CM and a more subdued dog - as he says it is hard to guess what has happened, but its possible that CM didnt want it all shown...

Also, I have worked as a trainer in the use of physical restraint with people - this is a complex area in terms of legislation, ethics and risk, and of course people and dogs are very different, but it does mean I have some understanding of the risks of physical restraint and how to assess the safety of such interventions and check for someone's wellbeing being compromised by physical intervention - specifically positional asphyxia.

In my honest opinion, what CM does to that dog is take it to the point of losing conciousness by simultaneously applying pressure to the neck area, and using a slip collar tightened around the neck.

At 2 minutes 29 seconds you see him loosen the ligature around the dog's neck, and at the same time the dog takes a deep breath, re-filling its lungs with air. I havent watched it with the sound on because I dont need CM to tell me what I am seeing! At the end of the clip the dog is semi conscious and unable to get up until it has re-oxygenated.

Needless to say acting this way against a person would be seen as a very serious assualt with a real risk of causing death.

Well, those are my observations - and in light of those, I have to say I wouldnt let him near an animal of mine, I have had some feisty dogs but always felt co-operation and leadership were the key, not strangling them into submission. Maybe the dogs become more subdued as a result of mild brain damage caused by strangulation!

ETA - I suspect that the dog was restrained in this way for a longer period of time than we see, and the edit is to cut out a lengthy middle section - however, that bit is merely speculation.

ohwell

maybe just try and watch quite a few of his episodes.

Also if you look at showing dogs you will see that they use collars at the top of the neck as this will put the head in a higher position. It gives you more control. Try leading a pulling dog, whatever breed, at the base of the neck and you will have a harder time keeping them in control as that is the strongest part.
Please just watch more series and you will see more diverse groups of dogs becoming alot happier with their new way of life.

Di

ohwell wrote: »

... if you look at showing dogs you will see that they use collars at the top of the neck as this will put the head in a higher position. It gives you more control.

they are forcing the head into an unnatural position to make it 'look' better.
they do not do it for control.

Try leading a pulling dog, whatever breed, at the base of the neck and you will have a harder time keeping them in control as that is the strongest part.

i did, i have. i use his brain to walk to heel, not force.

pboae

ohwell wrote: »

maybe just try and watch quite a few of his episodes.

Also if you look at showing dogs you will see that they use collars at the top of the neck as this will put the head in a higher position. It gives you more control. Try leading a pulling dog, whatever breed, at the base of the neck and you will have a harder time keeping them in control as that is the strongest part.
Please just watch more series and you will see more diverse groups of dogs becoming alot happier with their new way of life.

Collars are used at the top of the neck because that area is far more sensitive and painful. It gives more 'control' because it hurts more.

It's used on show dogs because they have to hold their heads unnaturally high.

There are much kinder ways of stopping a dog pulling while you train them not to.

ohwell

Just wondered why the rspca have not got involved then??????