Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer

UKTigerlily

ohwell wrote: »

Just wondered why the rspca have not got involved then??????

Sorry I haven't read the thread & I don't know much about CM, but he's American isn't he? I guess unless he does things in England they can't?

callywally

pboae wrote: »

Presumably the American Humane Association are just jealous as well.
http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer

I'd like to say I am surprised or disappointed with how much support he has, but I can't honestly say that. There are too many people who believe everything they see on television. Still, it only needs a few more deaths and serious injuries at the 'Dog Psychology Center' or at the hands of his assistants. Dead dogs don't make for good ratings.

In the meantime dogs will continue to get kicked, throttled and shocked by the people who are supposed to be caring for them, and that's the bit that really does depress me.

Just to say that the rspca wouldnt get involved because they deal mainly with animal abuse in this country not america. I believe that the american humane society has concerns about his methods

Kerriebaby

Personally I agree with is ideas, that Discipline, exercise and diet must come before love and cuddles, but that is as far as it goes.

I dont agree with his whole dominance theory ( which is flawed, as the dominance theory was put together from watching domestic wolves...and even the late great John Fisher had changed his views, sadly didnt get to update his books )

Alpha rolling dogs in my eyes is dangerous, as is showing it on the telly,,,yes you may be fine rolling a chi or a yorkie, but imagine someone Alpha rolling my dutchie girl or my cocker cross,,,,do you call the ambulance first or after they have bitten???

To someone who has studied canine behaviour, his "diagnosis" for many of the dogs on his show is way off

Kimberley

what CM does to that dog is take it to the point of losing conciousness by simultaneously applying pressure to the neck area, and using a slip collar tightened around the neck.

That dog got back up and wagged her tail and she also went up to CM on her own. Do you really think a Pit Bull or any other dog would just get up and do nothing? If a dog was ill treated then they would show it. They would cower each time CM walked over to them or shiver like mad. I have seen nothing in his programmes to suggest he is ill treating these dogs. The dogs will not allow him to without giving out signs that they are distressed around him.

I have fostered dogs who have been ill treated and most had sat in the corner of the room in fear until they trusted us enough for them to approach you.

CiciBaltimore

pboae wrote: »

heccus, I can't imagine what shows you've been watching then. That is pretty much the only techinque CM has. Here's a a random youtube link for you. Watch it WITHOUT the sound first.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gwFeSlsjFHA

He holds the dog off the ground by a choke collar, and pins her down by her neck. Watch it closely and you will see she isn't jumping up (which is how many people see it initially) he is hauling her up by the choker around her neck. At the very least she is going to have a bruised neck and throat after this, at worse he could break her neck.

When he pins her, don't be under any illusion as to how hard he is pressing to keep her down either. He makes it look like it's barely a touch, but you can see him press his whole weight on her. By the time she's still her eyes are rolling and she's frothing, both indicators of severe stress.

Yes it's true that other dogs do do this (roll a dog and pin it on it's back) but only if they intend to kill it. So it's like holding a gun to a person's head if they don't do as they are told.

On top of all that, the dog wasn't even being aggressive in the first place, she's showing frustration, but also showing signs that she wants to greet the other dog, not kill it. What she needs is the chance to learn some meet and greet manners, not to be yanked around and pinned to the floor.

He also set the situation up by having the other dog walk straight up head on. He could have avoided that and gone straight into parallel walking, starting at a distance and then closing the gap. But then he wouldn't have had a chance to manhandle the dog, and that would have made for a boring TV show.

It's a pity it finishes when it does as well. I'd like to have seen more of the walking afterwards. As always 'Daddy' is being very submissive, avoiding eye contact with the other dog, ears back, etc. All CMs talk about Daddy being a dominant dog is BS, everything about his posture and body language says appeasement.

But say you did decide to follow this training route with this dog, it would mean the owner keeping up this regime. Aside from the obvious risk that an owner less experienced than CM is likely to end up bitten if they roll a dog like that. All the dog is learning is not to react. In the meantime, everytime it sees another dog something nasty happens to it (it gets pinned to the ground). She now has a good reason to start being scared of dogs, and will quickly move from frustration at not being able to interact appropriately, to fear aggression. Which is a much harder problem to work on.

tiamai_d: I don't agree with many of the techniques used on dog borstal either, for the same reasons as I don't agree with CMs. Rattle bottles can work, but they can also make things much much worse. Why risk it, when you can get the same results from say, clicker training, without the risk? I also know several trainers who have been left to pick up the pieces of dogs who were left in a worse state by dog borstal than when they started. Of course you won't see that on television.

The pack leader and dominance stuff was discredited long ago. The original science it was based on was so flawed that the theories derived from it were nonsense. Even some of it's greatest supporters (e.g. John Fisher) have since done a u-turn on it.

I am not my dog's leader, I do not dominate him in anyway. I have trained him to be obedient with positive training. Everything I do goes against the rules of pack theory, yet he still does as I ask. He will let me do things he dislikes, even let me hurt him (e.g. when he has sore ears that need cleaning). If pack theory were correct, that shouldn't be possible.

So in one way I would agree with doing whatever works for your dog, because for most dogs it doesn't matter what approach you follow. As long as you are consistent and clear about what you want from them, they will learn, and they will behave as you ask.

On the other hand I disagree with that approach, because it allows people to continue to abuse dogs and call it 'training'. I also disagree with it because it doesn't address what happens if it doesn't work. With positive training the worst that will happen is that the dog either doesn't learn or learns something irrelevant. Which is the owner's cue that they need to make their instructions clearer.

With punishment based training when things go wrong they can go very wrong indeed, and there's a good chance someone one (or another dog) will end up bitten as a result. And if that training involves hurting a dog or terrifying them into submission, then as far as I am concerned that's abuse not training.

You are nuts if you cant see a dog jumping up or if you saw any cruelty in that clip. you do need to be the leader as there always does need to be a leader of the pack. if there isnt a leader, you get disorder. and that is all around us not judt in dogs. you talk so much rubbish its unreal. :mad:

ohwell

ditto kimberly and cici...

LittleTinker

Cruel?? Are you kidding me?? do you seriously think that he would be allowed to braodcast in America AND even here if he were cruel?

Do you not think the RSPCA would have something to say about it if it were cruel? It wouldnt even go on air!! As for America, they are not too keen on animal cruelty either you know.

The dog I saw in that clip looked happy, it was watching CM for guidance and was wagging his tail and seemed excited. I didnt see a withdrawn dog.

And what is the difference between holding a dog down (by the lead because its easier ) or holding a child in one position to sit still?

Every animal needs a leader....how can you be a dog lover and not know that??

trudiha

LittleTinker wrote: »

Every animal needs a leader....how can you be a dog lover and not know that??

Kicking, choking and administering electric shock is abuse, not leadership. Even most people how don't really like dogs, never mind those who claim to 'love' them would baulk at carrying out such actions.

The argument that it can't be cruel because it's on the tellybox is laughable, have you never seen the Grand National or, until this year, Crufts, where they show dogs that have been breed into such deformity that they can't breath properly or even give birth unassisted?

The only piece of 'advice' that Ceser gives out that I think is worth listening to is not to try any of his techniques on your own pet.

Reward based training is hard work, I'm sure that the results I see would come much more quickly if I were to kick my dog until he did what I wanted him to but I quite like my dog and I think that it's safer if he likes me too.

I guess that this is a bit like the child smacking argument; 25 years ago it wasn't just acceptable but normal to hit children, then it stopped being normal and now most people flinch when they see it. By degrees humanity is becoming a little more civilised and, hopefully, one day dogs will see the benefit of this.

Kerriebaby

The problem is, that with all of these shows, you and I only see very edited clips, Dog Borstal, VS, CM are all edited...and also carry " do not try this at hom" for a very good reason. They are trainers, the vast majority of Joe Public are not, whilst CM may be able to work with "red zone dogs" and be safe with his methods, VS may put a toddler on the floor with a child aggressive dog, and Mic Martin may use rattle bottles where he sees fit, how many regular dog owners have these peoples knowledge or expertise?? How many idiots watch the shows and copy? when in reality they should be contacting a behaviourist or trainer.

As I said before, I dont like any of the TV trainers ( exception on Ian Dunbar..who is a god! )

LittleTinker

trudiha wrote: »

Kicking, choking and administering electric shock is abuse, not leadership. Even most people how don't really like dogs, never mind those who claim to 'love' them would baulk at carrying out such actions.

The argument that it can't be cruel because it's on the tellybox is laughable, have you never seen the Grand National or, until this year, Crufts, where they show dogs that have been breed into such deformity that they can't breath properly or even give birth unassisted?

The only piece of 'advice' that Ceser gives out that I think is worth listening to is not to try any of his techniques on your own pet.

Reward based training is hard work, I'm sure that the results I see would come much more quickly if I were to kick my dog until he did what I wanted him to but I quite like my dog and I think that it's safer if he likes me too.

I guess that this is a bit like the child smacking argument; 25 years ago it wasn't just acceptable but normal to hit children, then it stopped being normal and now most people flinch when they see it. By degrees humanity is becoming a little more civilised and, hopefully, one day dogs will see the benefit of this.

Where was there any kicking.....or even electric shock going on? I must have missed that bit.

My point at leadership was directed at the other poster who said that dogs do not need leaders....yes they do. As do all animals. I didnt say cruelty WAS leadership. However, I didnt see any cruelty.

Its perception isnt it? You think the Grand national is cruel? Why? Because a horse MAY be injured? Because the horses are made to run by a whip?
The vast majority of people do not find that cruel.

Crufts is cruel too? Im a bit bemused by that.

Tell me one TV programme of a similar nature (not a documentary highlighting animal cruelty of course) that shows people how to be cruel to their animals.

Do you honestly believe that the RSPCA or American Humane Society are not going to cause a stink if the see blatant cruelty?

Because its down to perception.....and one persons views and opinions are not everyone's.