Water4Petrol Water4cars -Scam or Miracle?

PEAB_2

Yes, it's too expensive and the government should improve Public transport.

Originally Posted by yaoyao98

That whole quote is complete and utter rubbish. It is not science nor is it technology. It is simply lies and attempts to persuade people through the use of idiotic terminology. Do NOT believe a single word of the stuff.

The more I look on the internet for HHO technology the more I see utter lies propagated by those out to get money your money.

For sure you would expect the electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen and oxygen - and it does. However the energy input is more than the energy output. It is not even equal, simply because of the inefficiencies of any process - this one included. So even if the equivalent of lets say 3hp is used(ref:1hphr = 0.7457 kwhr) then it would produce about the equivalent of 2kwhr's worth of HHO in an hour. That is such a tiny proportion of the fuel requirements of a car travelling at 60mph that it would make no difference whatsoever. I am not saying HHO is not produced, but I am saying it is a waste of effort and certainly not worth the investment.

I have absolutely no doubt that HHO, when used in a blow torch is fearsome and will quickly melt tungsten carbide. That is not the point. The point is that to carry out such an impressive demonstration an awful lot of HHO is needed. It would take a long time for a typical fuel cell to produce enough HHO to conduct such a demonstration. If an HHO fuel cell could be produced that generated sufficient HHO to conduct that demonstration without having to store the HHO, then and only then would it be of use in a car. Be under no illusions a fuel cell of that size might work in a truck if it didn't need to carry any other load - that is because it would need to be so large that it would be unable to carry anything else.

By the way, the "melting tungsten carbide" demonstration can be made to look even more dramatic by adding a little more oxygen to the mix as it then works like an oxy-acetylene cutter. Nothing new in that very old and effective technology.

So don't part with your money. Use it for a really good night out and your will enjoy the benefits far more - and you will have something to remember!

sovereignvids

PEAB wrote: »

>And only last week (July 08) on our local TV news station, a company in Kent are fitting this very same system to commercial vehicles for £1000,s..... need I say more.

Yes, you do need to say more. Vague claims without proper substantiation mean that your claims are without value. As it is this whole cottage industry is a simple scam. Provide hard evidence that has independant accreditation and I will believe it. Meantime I consider ALL the claims to be simple lies.

OK check this out:

London transport are working on this 10 buses
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/environment/8444.aspx
BMW...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/the_money_programme/1014236.stm
I can find more, if you like. This is just two of so many articles I have come across about this subject. Perhaps the oils companies much rather we didn't know about this.

I am also in the process of building such an item to run my own car and vans(5), so far the signs are very promising with good hydrogen production (approx 1.5ltrs per min)

I will let you know when I start cutting my fuel bills by half.

What put rockets into space...

superscaper

sovereignvids wrote: »

What put rockets into space...

Usually liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen. But if a rocket in lift off is given X Joules of energy from the fuel and it takes 10 times X Joules to makes and compress the fuel, what does that prove? Nobody's denying that hydrogen and oxygen combust together. It's the difference and efficiency in energy from "creating" the fuel and then combusting it. There are currently researched methods for turning plastic back into oil. Does that mean that if you personally obtain a load of plastic manufacture the expensive reagents, process the plastic into oil, refine the oil for the petrol byproduct and then use it it's more efficient because you made the petrol instead of buying it?

Besides if H2 and O2 combustion is SOOO efficient and cheap then why is Rocket propulsion for space launches so incredibly expensive for payloads and massive research put into alternative methods? Aside from that the Space Shuttle for example doesn't even use Hydrogen and Oxygen as fuel at initial take off, it only uses it after the more serious amount of thrust has already been achieved.

superscaper

sovereignvids wrote: »

OK check this out:

London transport are working on this 10 buses
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/environment/8444.aspx
BMW...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/the_money_programme/1014236.stm
I can find more, if you like. This is just two of so many articles I have come across about this subject. Perhaps the oils companies much rather we didn't know about this.

Ummmm, Hydrogen fuel cells are a completely different thing to what's being talked about on this thread.
For a start this thread is talking about a perpetual motion machine based on water electrolysis and then combustion of the gases. Fuel cells are electric batteries that fall well within the realm of current physics. One is combustion, other is electricity. Combustion engine on one, electric motor on the other.....

They're hardly being suppressed by oil companies when you can already buy toys and batteries that run on hydrogen fuel cells. :rolleyes:

PEAB_2

Yes, it's too expensive and the government should improve Public transport.

It's summed up in the second link posted:-
"Dr. Roger Bentley of Reading University, applauds BMW's efforts but concluded: "There's nothing wrong with the idea of a hydrogen economy. But none of it can happen in the timescale to help solve the oil crisis. "Hydrogen needs energy to produce it. Solar panels may be one of those sources, but its all very expensive at the moment. There's a lot more development to be done. And as yet the infrastructure is not in place."

Sorry but neither of the links persuade me that the so called HHO fuel cells sold on websites will be of any use at all. They are simply scams.

PEAB_2

Yes, it's too expensive and the government should improve Public transport.

Oh, by the way the hydrogen fuel cell that is planned on being used in those 10 TFL buses is totally different in how it works to the production of HHO by electrolysis. They use TOTALLY different technologies. The TFL fuel cells use hydrogen whilst the HHO, so called fuel cells, produce hydrogen. So, sovereignvids, please quote relevant links rather than irrelevant stuff that you are hoping no one will read.

As you will no doubt attempt to refute this, here's a quotation from the TFL link you have given:

"Very simply, a fuel cell works like a battery. As hydrogen gas flows into a fuel cell, the hydrogen combines with oxygen and is converted into water. In the process it produces electricity and this powers the electric motor which drives the vehicle." see:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/environment/8444.aspx

I repeat, the HHO fuel cell claims are all lies and the whole business is an elaborate scam.

AdrianHi

PEAB wrote: »

It's summed up in the second link posted:-
"Dr. Roger Bentley of Reading University, applauds BMW's efforts but concluded: "There's nothing wrong with the idea of a hydrogen economy. But none of it can happen in the timescale to help solve the oil crisis. "Hydrogen needs energy to produce it. Solar panels may be one of those sources, but its all very expensive at the moment. There's a lot more development to be done. And as yet the infrastructure is not in place."

Sorry but neither of the links persuade me that the so called HHO fuel cells sold on websites will be of any use at all. They are simply scams.

As a BMW fan and having an amateur interest in hydrogen fuel cells for some years now I'm confident these technologies will become commercially available.
Nissan have a hydrogen fuel cell demonstrator X-Trail, as a prototype it costs £100,000 but they are confident they could bring a city car (such as a Micra) to market powered by a hydrogen fuel cell for £10,000 in due course.
On a recent article somewhere (sorry forget where) BMW are saying that even in 2018 hydrogen as a fuel source for mass produced private vehicles will be too expensive. We will be buying various types of petrol/diesel/LPG-electric hybrids for a while yet.
From time to time I pick up bits of info. from New Scientist where people are making progress on getting hydrogen extraction more efficient (i.e. using less electricity in the process) and progress is being made in all kinds of alternative electricity generation.
Realistically we need a bundle of Nuclear power stations and wind farms to generate electricity cheaply enough to make hydrogen viable as a mass scale fuel source for transport.

superscaper

AdrianHi wrote: »

As a BMW fan and having an amateur interest in hydrogen fuel cells for some years now I'm confident these technologies will become commercially available.
Nissan have a hydrogen fuel cell demonstrator X-Trail, as a prototype it costs £100,000 but they are confident they could bring a city car (such as a Micra) to market powered by a hydrogen fuel cell for £10,000 in due course.
On a recent article somewhere (sorry forget where) BMW are saying that even in 2018 hydrogen as a fuel source for mass produced private vehicles will be too expensive. We will be buying various types of petrol/diesel/LPG-electric hybrids for a while yet.
From time to time I pick up bits of info. from New Scientist where people are making progress on getting hydrogen extraction more efficient (i.e. using less electricity in the process) and progress is being made in all kinds of alternative electricity generation.
Realistically we need a bundle of Nuclear power stations and wind farms to generate electricity cheaply enough to make hydrogen viable as a mass scale fuel source for transport.

I for one wholeheartedly support the idea of hydrogen (or any other anodes) electric fuel cells for near future production. But this is getting off topic as besides having hydrogen involved it's nothing to do with the topic of this thread which is perpetual motion machines using combustion. Unless of course a single person here buying one of these website kits has also replaced their entire engine with electric motors.

PEAB_2

Yes, it's too expensive and the government should improve Public transport.

Quote from AdrianHi > As a BMW fan and having an amateur interest in hydrogen fuel cells for some years now I'm confident these technologies will become commercially available.

Please re-read the title of this thread. It is NOT about hydrogen fuel cells. It is about using water as the energy source to drive a car.

There is nothing unscientific about hydrogen fuel cells, they use hydrogen they do not produce it. In using hydrogen, the fuel cells produce electricity directly. There is no pseudo science about it, it works. This is in stark contrast to how a so called HHO fuel cell works.

An HHO fuel cell, splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, and then that is sucked into the air intake of the vehicle. In other words it produces hygrogen and oxygen. The splitting of water into hydrogen and oxygen is a process called electrolysis that is old, slow and well established. It also uses electrical energy.

People claim they have made HHO fuel cells that produce 2 litres of HHO per minute. Unless they are very well equipped with volumetric measuring equiment, which is unlikey, they are simply attempting to deceive us. In other words, it's a lie. However even assuming they have produced such an HHO electrolysis system, let's have a look at what they have.

Assume a 2 litre petrol engine working at 3000rpm. Being a 4 stroke engine it will suck in 2 litres of air every other rev. That means that it sucks in 2 litres x 3000/2 = 3000 litres of air per minute. If the HHO cell produces 2 litres HHO per minute then the HHO would represent 2/3000*100 = 0.067% by volume of the air used per minute. That's not even 1/10th of a percent of the air used. At that concentration, the HHO will have no effect whatsoever. By weight 2 litres of hydrogen weigh 0.2 grammes ie. 0.2% by weight of the petrol.

Now those that are dreamers and who still believe HHO at 0.067% does something let's for a moment consider how much petrol a car uses per minute. Assume 30mpg at 50mph and at 3000rpm. That translates to approximately 100 grammes weight of petrol per minute. 100 grammes of petrol will produce, when vapourised, enough of an explosion to destroy a house. 2 litres of HHO could be exploded safely in the garden without damage to anything.

Keep your money, do not buy an HHO kit for your vehicle, it is a scam.

AdrianHi

PEAB wrote: »

Please re-read the title of this thread. It is NOT about hydrogen fuel cells. It is about using water as the energy source to drive a car.

Yes I know, but the conversation has gone in this direction so the post seemed relevant and should not be interpreted as my endorsement of the "product" in the original topic title.
I understand peoples strong desire to save and / or get away from oil. In 1999 when I bought my previous car I hoped it was the last oil fuelled car I would ever own, sadly not to be, the best I could do was a diesel

I think the original topic has run it's course, what more is there to say than virtually all of these Water4Fuel systems just don't work, often make things worse and the one that might work is probably still not a good idea due to the modifications required to the car.

We either let the conversation develop or stop it and may be day dream about hydrogen power on another thread....;)