Air Source Heat Pumps

andrewlato

Geotherm wrote: »

Interesting Andrew.
A normal low insulation house of 75 sq mtrs would probably require at the most a 9kw heat pump, as it is a quite small area to heat. If your outside temps drop no lower than the pump operating levels, which seem to be from -7 to 43C, then you should be okay, but I see on the Trianco info site that they are quoting to -15C, so would the auxilliary heater need to then cut in?
Also your buffer tank, should be 12x the size of the heat pump output, according to the Trianco info.

HI Geotherm
I spoke with Trianco people before i bought it- basicly they say the pump will work up to -5 without need for back up (occasional defrost mode from 0deg) . after that on its own COP comes down to 1, but with immersion heater and night rates on E7 it can be 'adjusted up' a bit. I guess i will have to see when temp comes down to that . I do not expect temp to drop lower than -5 and stay there for weeks. Also i agree with you that top brand HP 9kw should be more than enough for my house. But 12kw trianco's performance drops dramatically with a outside temp so i chose it based on average temp where i live(5deg) and KW that my house needs(Trianco performs 7.6kw at 5deg temp). I hope the extra KW will work in my favour when temps drop.
As per Trianco's manual- it's pretty poor I'd say. There's absolutely no info on defrost mode(when, how long, reverse cycle etc?), no info on sensor settings, what some sensor readings mean and few other glitches. You can get that info when you ring them- they seems to know what they are selling.
With regards to buffer- i know it says 12x12kw =144ltr but I looked on other (top brand HP) and quite few are using 100ltr buffers on systems up to 12kw. They also recommend 28mm pipe, mine is done with 22mm copper up to manifold and then 15mm PEX pipes(all separate circuits) up to rads(I just hate joints-especially when they leak 'somewhere" under floor). I bought very good Wilo Smart 25/6 pump which is coping with flow very well. I agree that 150ltr would probably give me a bit of extra hot water before pumps kicks in again, but i just couldnt find one at the time. 100ltr works fine for me.
It just shows that you always have some way of playing with the components withing your system. It may backfire when things go wrong(warranty issue) but Trianco said to me that because they are selling them so cheap there's no warranty with them...Not sure that's withing law...
Im not that bothered with warranty anyway, I will always try to fix the problem myself first as long as i can get parts for it.
Lets hope that things will not go wrong...(just like some plumbers fitting HP do ;-) )

albyota

Andrew, .....want a job?, well done, I admire your independence and tenacity, I hope it all works out for you, I wish you well. I did pretty much the same......i.e. was my own guineapig, that was in October 2008, went for the Mitsubishi 8.5 kW Ecodan in a 185 M2 detached house, plumbers told me it wouldn't work, I now work for a company designing and speccing systems. Nothing like experience and risking your own money, I wish MCS didn't exist, although I understand why it has to be there.

andrewlato

albyota wrote: »

Andrew, .....want a job?, well done, I admire your independence and tenacity, I hope it all works out for you, I wish you well. I did pretty much the same......i.e. was my own guineapig, that was in October 2008, went for the Mitsubishi 8.5 kW Ecodan in a 185 M2 detached house, plumbers told me it wouldn't work, I now work for a company designing and speccing systems. Nothing like experience and risking your own money, I wish MCS didn't exist, although I understand why it has to be there.

Hi Albyota,
thanks for kind works. and well done to you for doing you own system.
I wish i could have done it with UFH but it's not new built so well too much work. Yeah MCS=waste of time, large part of fees we pay end up in their pockets...
and yes i guess i could do with part time job...;-)

gneiss_2

Its interesting reading through these posts, while there are some reporting very good performance from ASHPs many are not.
Problems with many installers behaving a bit like car salesmen, all shiny on the outside but not a clue about the insides coming along and installing these systems and leaving the end user to try and make sense of the system/controlling it.
Our system installed under a council capital contract was passed down through three subcontractors each getting further away from the original contractor who by the way admitted that they didn't know much about heat pumps?
Working to a price each contractor spent the least possible time in the house, the storage heaters and water tank ripped out and ASHP and fittings installed and up and running in 2 days. The only contact after that by mobile phone.
The council originally were to train their plumbers up to service/maintain the pumps but the installers themselves now have the contract.
From a council source they have admitted that retro fitting these pumps into old solid wall house may prove to be an expensive white elephant both for the council and the end user, but hey it ticks all the SNP governments carbon reduction boxes on paper.
ASHPs were not designed for humid climates, humidity today is close on 100% here in the West Highlands, Nibe's brochure and blurb states that their ASHPs are designed for NORDIC climates.
Electricity prices in the UK are rocketing we now pay 18.17p and 10.53p and with the heat pump requiring power all day running cost are high.
So really its down to the make a quick buck brigade installing systems that are relative easy to install by anyone ( some posters proving this) taking the cash and running.
There seems here in the UK no official body that regulates these people although you hear many stating that they are MCS registered,(Make Cash Scam), the blame is thrown back at the customer not under standing the system but surely the installer and ASHP manufacturer are the real culprits. We received a bag of installation manuals and end user booklets and told that's the system set up you don't need to do anything. So what is the danfoss room stat in the hall for? it's just used as a timer??
At the moment with the settings basically the same as when the installer set the system up we are running at around £5 a day, but the temp has over the past week gone up to 10 deg., before xmas we had nearly three weeks below freezing (-6 at night) and the cost a few pence off £10 a day!!
Nibes says it can take up to 24hrs for the system to adjust to changes in temp so our fluctuating Highland weather isn't really within Nibes claim 'built for Nordic climates'.
A Kwh in Norway today = 2.27pence+ vat:rotfl:
Who's laughing, certainly not the consumer.

gneiss_2

http://www.ssb.no/en/elkraftpris/main.html

House hold electricity prices in Norway are 35% cheaper than 2011

lovesgshp

gneiss wrote: »

http://www.ssb.no/en/elkraftpris/main.html

House hold electricity prices in Norway are 35% cheaper than 2011

Wish our electricity prices were as low as yours in the UK. We pay up to 35 Euro cents per Kwh after we have used 4400 units a year. My annual consumption with a GSHP and the rest of the house is circa 10000 Kwh p.a.

dullnote

Gneiss I too stay in Scotland but my running costs are about half of what you are saying, house 180 m2 underfloor heating through out, temp through all the house 21 degrees, compared with LPG this is a god send.

As for the MCS cert I am happy with the company, they did all the calcs went through the system with me, yes you pay but if you get a system that work, don't see the issue. I also went th a non MSC company who was trying to sell me something that would not work, when I asked for the calcs I never heard from them again.

I agree we have to get away from you pay our money and ate a chance, MSC is the way forward, only if the trading is right, not a plumber pay some money the get the MCs creditation .

On another note, I agreed the the survey or meter installed, already had most of the money back into my account but never heard a thing about survey or the meter, has anyone seen either

Dullnote

albyota

dullnote wrote: »

On another note, I agreed the the survey or meter installed, already had most of the money back into my account but never heard a thing about survey or the meter, has anyone seen either

Dullnote

Dullnote, thE RHPP grant you are referring to, you should have had £680 paid already, with the remaining 20% to be paid once the heat metering equipment is fitted, if they choose not to fit it, you will get the £170 payment 31st March.

Al

dullnote

Cheers Albyota, just wondering if any one had the survey to complete or the meter installed?

Yes I did get the money and the remainder will be paid, it would be I treating to know what percentage of pumps are being monitored

Dullnote

Uclan

I have a cheap Chinese made ASHP installed by my builder 3 years ago which I am trying to update for a better model i.e. Mitsubishi etc. I have had quotes from several companies. Two of which are supposedly Ecodan registered installers. The prices they have quoted seem a lot for what they are offering. Not one of the companies have offered a solution to my problem which is a lack of heating to the system. The hot water to the tank is fine but the radiators do not get hot enough to warm the house unless the 6kw immersion kicks in also. The HP is linked into an ACV SLME SMART 300L. tank which is supposedly compatible with heat pumps. The tank is twice the price of the heat pump. One of the companies has suggested ripping out this tank and replacing it with a Kingspan. The house is approximately 180m2 with up to standard insulation throughout. The system heats 15 various oversized radiators. We are off the gas grid so the only alternative is oil or lpg. I would appreciate any input regarding finding a compatible good quality HP fitted at a reasonable price by a knowledgable company with a good warranty. Both quotes I have recieved have asked for money up front before completion of work. The way these companies seem to work reminds me of the double glazing industry in the eighties. I would be especially interested of any input regarding the compatibility and the quality of the ACV tank.